Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 23

= September 23 =

Languarge / Plural Words
Can you please tell us all plural words ending with en or ren? We know of two, oxen and children. Is there any other? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.255.114 (talk) 22:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In terms of words having some currency in the modern standard language, "brethren" is pretty much the only other one... "Kine" was once the umlauted-and-en-suffixed plural of "Cow". AnonMoos (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course, there are m-en and wom-en. There is also doz-en, which may be used as a plural.  If you want to indulge in dubious semantics, sev-en or t-en are possible plurals of one.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Dozen" isn't the plural of "doz" but from the French "douzaine", cf "dixaine", "vingtaine", "centaine" etc. Nor is "seven" the plural of "sev"; it is cognate with Latin "septem". Itsmejudith (talk) 13:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * My indulgence reached its breaking point after the end of your 2nd sentence, Cookatoo. :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * May I direct your attention to our article on the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, three of which - Sr. Benedicta, Sr. P. and Sr. Vaticana - will be sanctified, posthumourously, I suspect, in the forthcoming oevre penned by the great BardofOz. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There is the word "Lederhosen". -- Wavelength (talk) 23:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You could argue that that's an English word borrowed from German that still takes its original-language plural, cf. phenomena, bureaux etc. Oxen, children and brethren all use an English plural form.  It may not be the dominant form, but it's still a legitimate English plural, because there are no such words as oxes or childs.  There is brothers, but that means something different from brethren. --  JackofOz (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Another example would be "heldentenoren", a not uncommon alternative to heldentenors. I was reminded of this when checking James Lipton's An Exaltation of Larks (a book I cannot recommend too highly for those interested in collective nouns), which suggests "a schrei of heldentenoren".  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose that could be the Dutch plural. The German plural is Heldentenöre. —Angr 20:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If root words are included, then their compounds are also:
 * grandchildren (and great-grandchildren, and so forth), stepchildren,
 * postmen, fishermen, gentlemen, linemen, firemen, aldermen, henchmen, clansmen, yeomen, bowmen, oarsmen, kinsmen, cavemen, boatmen, tradesmen, seamen, wood(s)men,
 * gentlewomen, noblewomen, charwomen, washerwomen,
 * twenty-seven (and thirty-seven, and so forth).
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 00:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * None of those (except the compounds of "children") actually have an "-en" plural suffix morpheme, but there is also the hackeresque "boxen" and "Vaxen"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC) AnonMoos (talk) 14:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * See wikt:Category:English plurals ending in "-en". The only interesting one not mentioned already is "sistren".  --Sean 14:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It used to be thought in the 19th century that "chicken" was originally the plural of "chick" and somehow became singular. It is now considered that "chick" is derived from "chicken", not vice versa.  One example of the German loanwords mentioned earlier is aurochs; the German plural "aurochsen" is sometimes used in English, though as the article states aurochs is the usual English plural. jnestorius(talk) 21:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Vixen" isn't a plural either, but it is a very unusual singular. Does that count?  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No doubt this has been covered here time out of mind, but there are reasons for the -en plurals. Nouns taking the weak declension in Old English took an -en plural, whereas strong nouns took -s, and when the latter form (favoured in the North) prevailed, only "oxen" survived.  "Children" and "brethren" are different:  double plurals, in that the -en was added to a word already in its "irregular" plural form.  I love Caxton's little anecdote about the bunch of merchants becalmed in the mouth of the Thames, who go ashore to buy supplies and can't get the poor housewife to understand "eggs".  "I'm sorry,", she says, "I don't speak French."  Only when they ask her for "eyren" does she understand.   Ka renjc 21:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * An old favorite with linguists. The full story:
 * And that comyn Englysshe that is spoken in one shyre varyeth from a nother. In so moche that in my dayes happened that certayn marchauntes were in a shippe in Tamyse, for to haue sayled ouer the see into Zelande. And for lacke of wynde, thei taryed atte forlond, and wente to lande for to refreshe them; And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam in-to an hows and axed for mete; and specyally he axyd after eggys; And the goode wyf answerde, that she coude spoke no Frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry, for he also coude speke no Frenshe, but wolde haue hadde egges, and she vnderstode hym not. And thenne at laste a nother sayd that he wolde haue eyren. Then the good wyf sayd that she vnderstod hym wel. Loo, what sholde a man in thyse dayes now wryte, egges or eyren? Certaynly it is harde to playse euery man by cause of dyuersite & chaunge of langage.
 * And the last sentence is as true today as it was then. —Angr 11:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Child' did not originally take an -en plural; it was originally child, later childra. Children was a Middle English leveling with brethren, which also had an -r-. kwami (talk) 21:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I had heard the eggs story before. Can anyone provide a stable online source? I had understood it was from Chaucer. Thanks. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's definitely Caxton; it's from the prologue to his translation of the Aeneid. Just Google for a handful of words from the above text, putting them in quotation marks, for example, to find all sorts of online sources. —Angr 13:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Certaynly it is harde to playse euery man by cause of dyuersite & chaunge of langage." That quote should be put at the top of Manual of Style (spelling)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgcopter (talk • contribs) 14:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sometimes "sistren" is used humourously in modern English. "Eyren" and "shoen" were also in use until very recently in English.  The Jade Knight (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)