Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 24

= September 24 =

The origins of the term: Minding your Ps and Qs?
Does anyone know the meaning of or the origins of the saying "Minding your ps and qs." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 56.0.143.25 (talk) 06:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've heard various theories on this, including printers dealing with movable type where the letters appear on the blocks in mirror-image, making confusion of "p" and "q" (and for that matter, "b" and "d") easy. Another theory I've heard is barkeepers having to keep track of how many pints and quarts they've sold. —Angr 06:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Other theories are given at Mind your Ps and Qs. Gwinva (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Another theory (with little support) is that it's related to P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, and distinguishing between them. But that's generally pretty far-fetched.  The Jade Knight (talk) 07:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

environment and ecosystem
Are the terms interchangeable? If there is a sensitive area to protect or a natural resource that has been damaged...what are some of the subtleties is the use of these two words? Is one of them part of the other (the environment is made up of various ecosystems, or vice versa?) If I write about 'protecting the environment and the ecosystem', am I being redundant, or imprecise? Thanks for any suggestions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.101.134.43 (talk) 14:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say that "ecosystem" refers to a precise and defined area and all the flora and fauna in that area, and that "enviornment" is more of a nebulous term used to refer to the overall condition of an area or the world. So, for example, to talk about "the ecosystem of the Amazon rainforest" would refer to all the plants, animals, and people living in the Amazon rainforest, how they interact with each other, etc.  I don't think one would say "the enviornment of the Amazon rainforest" to mean the same thing (in fact, I think that phrase is almost meaningless).  In my mind, "ecosystem" is a scientific term, and "environment" is a socio-political one.


 * So, with regards to your example, I would write about "protecting the environment" or "protecting the ecosystem of [specific place]", but probably wouldn't combine both terms in the way you used. Dgcopter (talk) 16:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

"Environment" is everything that surrounds somebody or something (compare "environs"). When talking about an environment you should really say whose environment – yours or perhaps somebody else's? I would understand "the environment" as a broad term meaning all humanity's environment, i.e. the Earth. "Ecosystem" is of course related, through the "eco" component derived from the Greek oikos, meaning "house, dwelling place, habitation". But it also has the "system" component which means that you're looking at your (or others') environment from a scientific point of view, that is as a system of interacting elements. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 18:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is a link: Environment and eco-system resilience - Statistics New Zealand
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 21:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the article "Glossary of environmental science",
 * an ecosystem is "a dynamic complex of plant, animal and microorganism communities and their non-living environment all interacting as a functional unit",
 * and (the/an) environment is "the external conditions, resources, stimuli etc. with which an organism interacts".
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 15:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You might receive better answers at Reference desk/Science.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 15:32, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are four external links.
 * EnviroEducation.com - The Ultimate Environment Glossary.
 * United Nations Statistics Division - Environment Statistics -- Environment Glossary
 * Environmental Terminology Discovery Service &mdash; EEA
 * Environmental Glossary &raquo; Earth 911
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Poised or composed? which word to use, or how to build the sentence?
The druid remained COMPOSED/POISED despite what she had just been told, and he got the feeling that she had somehow already known the truth of the situation down in the Dwarven Halls, even before he told her. It had just been a matter of getting it confirmed since no one had ventured down there until now.

what is the better word to use here?

I might be wrong, but I've always thought of "composed" as a word that you use more to describe how calm and controlled you are in a ACTIVE situation, such as in sports, competitions or the likes. Like in soccer, if you get a chance alone with the keeper to score you can say that one must keep ones composure in order to be able to score.

But the sentence on the top which I am referring to in this question is not like that. Here, this woman is told something, she gets some grave, bad news that potentially could have made her react in shock and/or surprise, but she remains calm and controlled.. This is a very different situation, and it is not "in the heat of the moment" I'm not sure if 'composed' is the word i should use, although maybe it is... And I'm not as sure about 'poised'... I guess i just need to hear from someone who is born english-spoken.

A very simple question, but I would still be very grateful for an englishman's (or american's etc.) view on the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.177.171 (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I would go with 'composed'. It just implies that the person is emotionally normal/stable, which fits the context.  I would say 'poised' is more active, as though the person is quite obviously stable. --Richardrj talkemail 15:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you :) that was helpful —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.177.171 (talk) 15:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Chinese question
My Chinese work colleague told me, upon discussing the Finnish and Chinese languages, that "chau" (using an approximate phonetic spelling, sounds like "ciao" in Italian) is a very profane swear word in Chinese. Is this true, and if so, what exactly does it mean? J I P | Talk 19:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * They're probably thinking of cao4 嘈 (I think that's the character, it might be 操). It's pronounced [tsʰau] with a falling tone (tone 4), which is somewhat similar (especially to a Taiwanese person). Steewi (talk) 00:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Isn't it this character (肏)? In Cantonese, the pronunciation is chaau3, according to Wiktionary, so that might be what your colleague is referring to.  bibliomaniac 1  5  01:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I kind of wonder how the fact that the great majority of possible phonetic syllables are multiply homophonous (semantically ambiguous between several words) in isolation affects Chinese swearwords... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] AnonMoos (talk) 01:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's all dependent on the context of course, but sometimes it does lend itself to confusion/double entendre. There are also Chinese euphemisms, for example, xiao jie is the colloquial for "waitress," but it may also mean "prostitute."  bibliomaniac 1  5  19:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ...which can lead to horribly funny Chinglish translations: Fuck the Certain Price of Goods (干货计价处 / 乾[幹]貨計價處, "dry goods weighing station"). The character that the OP had heard is probably 肏, but it's quite archaic and nowadays it's more commonly expressed with the homophone 操, and basically means "fuck". --antilivedT 05:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Allow/permit
What is the difference between the verbs "allow" and "permit"? J I P | Talk 19:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To permit is to give permission. To allow is to admit, or to take into consideration: you can allow (admit) the truth, you can allow (or admit) something is acceptable, you can allow (or take into consideration) a particular plan or suggestion. Sometimes "permit" and "allow" are interchangeable, but not always.  Gwinva (talk) 23:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)