Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 6

= September 6 =

Czech name
How is the Czech name "Marie" pronounced? I believe it is different from the French and German one, but I am not sure about the syllables. Please do not use IPA, I can barely read it. It should either be pronounced "mah-ree-eh" or "mah-ree-ah". Which one of these is correct? Or maybe both are wrong? Vltava 68 ( talk, contribs ) 01:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * After skimming over Czech_phonology and Czech_phonetic_transcription, my educated guess is, or per your request, MAH-ree-eh, where that last vowel "eh" is most like the e in bet. Perhaps someone more skilled than I am in Czech phonology can approve my pronunciation or correct it.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 18:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't speak Czech, but being a native speaker of a closely related language, I suppose "Marie" is pronounced as two syllables, not three, that is in IPA, or MAH-ryeh. The R should be rolled and softened (palatalized) by the following I. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 21:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not a native Czech speaker but I believe a Czech speaker may pronounce the name as three syllables when speaking carefully and two when speaking quickly. The "r" is rolled as in Spanish. The "e" is pronounced like the short e in English, but since it's in a non-stressed syllable, it may just sound like "uh." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Any native Czech speakers out there? Vltava 68  ( talk, contribs ) 09:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In case no native speakers come along, I studied Czech in university for two years and spent some time in Prague, though I am far from proficient in the language. That said, I am confident that Czech writing has a fairly direct correspondence to (standard) pronunciation.  In Czech, the only consonants that are palatalized when followed by the letter i are d, n, and t.  Other consonants may be palatalized when a morphological ending starting with a vowel other than i is replaced by i as a result of a change in, for example, person or case, but that palatalization results in a corresponding orthographic change.  For example, starý is an adjective (in the masculine nominative singular) meaning "old".  The same adjective in the masculine animate nominative plural becomes staří.  When r is palatalized (which does not tend to happen in words of foreign origin), its spelling changes to ř.  So, if Marie were a two-syllable word pronounced with a palatalized r, it would be spelled Maře, which it is not.  So the name is pronounced as El aprendelenguas and Mwalcoff have indicated.  Marco polo (talk) 19:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Another possibility is that a Czech woman named Marie may have had a French parent, and the name is intended to be pronounced in the French way, with 2 syllables. --  JackofOz (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Except in this case, I'm assuming that the woman's of Czech parentage, though I am not trying to find out how someone's name I know is pronounced. Vltava 68  (talk  contribs ) 09:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm a native speaker. It is pronounced (MAH-ree-yeh), three syllables, no palatalization. — Emil J. 16:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Tenses in french
What is the difference in meaning between the pluperfect tense and the past anterior tense. Thanks. Philc 0780 14:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, my French reference book in which I could have found this answer right away is not with me now. I looked through some of Wikipedia's French-language articles and could not find a definitive answer. If it's anything like Spanish, though (as I suspect it is), the past anterior tense is very rarely used and only under a limited amount of circumstances. Plus, it is strictly a literary tense (much like the preterite in French), and outside of literature with fuzzy-old-style-Shakespearianesque writing, you won't encounter it.--El aprendelenguas (talk) 17:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The pluperfect (plus-que-parfait) is usually translated as "had done (something)."
 * J'avais cherché / I had looked for (searched for).
 * The past anterior (passé antérieur) is a literary form of pluperfect.
 * J'eus cherché / I had looked for (searched for).
 * "Used in literature and historical accounts to indicate an action in the past that occurred before another action in the past," it says here. Something like passe simple, also used in formal writing and very formal speech.   --- OtherDave (talk) 18:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * (I clarified the English translations a bit... shouldn't post when I'm tired. --- OtherDave (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC))
 * Thank you both. Philc 0780 08:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the French past anterior is literary and restricted in use. To be more precise: in a main clause you would only use it with an adverbial of time, in a subordinate clause the past anterior expresses a single past event that occurred immediately before the action of the main clause. So you would come across the past anterior often after quand, lorsque, dès que, après que, aussitôt que. In spoken language, you would use the passé surcomposé instead, or you would try to avoid the construction that triggers this use of the tenses. -- 84.160.18.35 (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)