Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 19

= April 19 =

IPA of my name
Could anyone fluent in IPA help? It's pronounced "deckel-type" decltype (talk) 00:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Its IPA would be dɛkɛltaɪp. --Omidinist (talk) 04:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot! decltype (talk) 05:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I challenge that to dɛkoltaɪp.68.148.145.190 (talk) 06:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Correction: dɛkoltɑɪp.68.148.145.190 (talk) 06:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say that it's closer to . That's phonemic transcription.  Phonetic transcription can be a lot more fun (as you can see with my signature).  It could be something like . — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  08:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean, rather, narrow and broad transcription?68.148.130.72 (talk) 18:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I checked the phoneme. It says nothing about phonemic transcription.  We have article phonetic transcription, but that does not describe what you are talking about.68.148.130.72 (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be interesting to know the geographical origins of these responders, one's accent is likely to influence how you pronounce words, isn't it? Richard Avery (talk) 11:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I (a speaker of General American) would say . —Angr 11:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Geographical origins affect WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to all who replied. Very interesting. So far people have proposed: dɛkɛltaɪp, dɛkoltɑɪp, dɛkəl taɪp, and dɛkl̩ˌtaɪp. I am not sure I understand the distinction between phonetic and phomenic transcription.

If I read these correctly, it would seem that the second "e" sound is the most "disputed", but saying these out loud, none of them sound terribly wrong. As a matter of fact, "decl" is an abbreviation of "declared", so I suppose one could even argue that it should really be pronounced something like: dɪkltaɪp decltype (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Except that nobody but your good self would know it's an abbreviation of "declared". Specifying exactly how you would prefer other users to pronounce your username, in a medium that's written and not spoken, seems curiously ... well, pointless, if you'll forgive me for saying so.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Noted. It's a term from C++, and not my invention. I acknowledge that most people wouldn't know this, and also acknowledge that some people would still consider it pointless, but hopefully, marginally less so. decltype (talk) 21:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See phoneme. Roughly speaking, a phonemic transcription only marks enough to make the sounds unambiguous to an speaker of the language (here, English), but ignores details which are not significant for that language, though they might be for other languages. Another consequence is that phonetic transcriptions of a word from speakers with different accents will always be different, whereas phonemic transcriptions of the word will often (though not always) be the same. --ColinFine (talk) 20:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Excellent explanation, thanks. I had a look at the articles, but I was hoping someone would give me the cliffs notes. decltype (talk) 21:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a bit odd we have four or five conflicting IPA responses to this, when a cursory glance at the OP's explanation in his question immediately conveys the pronunciation? FreeMorpheme (talk) 10:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

French translations : 3
I am unsure about the following translations:

1. Should "I am going to school" be translated to "Je vais pour l'ecole" (with an acute accent on the "e" in "ecole") or "Je vais a l'ecole" (with a grave accent on the "a" in "a" and an acute accent on the "e" in "ecole")? I am unsure, but I have learnt to translate, "I am collecting my things to go to school" to "Je ramasse mes affaires pour aller a l'ecole" with the accents put in as before.
 * It is à l'école. --Lgriot (talk) 06:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

2. Is it correct (with emphasis) to translate, "Are those pupils listening?" to any one of "Ces eleves-la ecoutent-ils?" (with an acute and grave accent on the first two consecutive "e's" of "eleves" respectively, an acute accent on the first "e" of "ecoutent", and a grave accent on the "a" of "la") or "Est-ce que ces eleves-la ecoutent?" (same placement of accents)? I am unsure about whether both are correct.
 * Both are correct.--Lgriot (talk) 06:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

3. To translate "I am listening", would it be "J'ecoute" or "Je ecoute" where in each case there is an accute accent on the first "e" of "ecoute". Would it be "T'ecoute" for "You are listening" with the same placing of the accent (acute)?
 * J'écoute is the only accepted form. T'écoutes is possible but a little colloquial, Tu écoutes is the most common in writing. --Lgriot (talk) 06:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help once again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 04:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * When you asked for help before (Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 9), I provided two external links to help you with foreign characters, but maybe you found them to be unsuitable for your needs. Maybe you would prefer to use the option provided by Wikipedia, which involves a drop-down menu below the edit box.  Selecting "Latin" makes available an array of characters which can be entered individually into the edit box by being clicked. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for the tips but I am not too worried about it. If I were editing the French Wikipedia - maybe. But now I am only a beginner and I will probably learn it as I go along. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 05:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You may not be too worried about it, but you are asking for help from us. The harder you make it to read your question, the less likely it is that people will want to help you.
 * On the subject of your first question, please think a little. If you translated your example sentence literally, you would get 'for to go to school' - not current English (though perfectly good English a few hundred years ago as it happens), but you can see that the 'pour' is outside the 'go to school'.
 * Please don't think I am trying to put you off asking: I am delighted that you are trying to learn French, and asking here when you are not clear; but a little thought and effort on your side will make me, for one, more willing to answer you. --ColinFine (talk) 21:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for being a bit lazy. The text I am reading so happens to be published in 1901 so actually it is indeed correct a 100 years ago! The other thing which seemed contrary (I did think but this translation contradicted my belief) is "I am on the way to school" was translated as "Je suis en route pour l'école" which literally gives you "I am on the way for school" which is not exactly what you would say in English. Languages are often not comparable and I am afraid of learning wrong information (especially prepositions can be highly complex - the use of pour for example). That is why I ask even for the most obvious things (you see I am learning French on my own so I don't have anything to consult except for my 100 year old textbook). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 04:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * For more sources and references, see http://directory.google.com/Top/Science/Social_Sciences/Linguistics/Languages/Natural/Indo-European/Italic/Romance/French/Learning/. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough - I see how 'en route pour l'école' might have confused you (note, though, that while we wouldn't say 'on the way for school', we might say 'which is the road for Manchester'). And you are right that prepositions or their equivalent often have subtle traps. (Even between dialects of English: for me, and I think most British speakers, 'in school' would be an odd thing to say, and I would probably only say it if I meant 'physically in the school building'; whereas in American speech it appears to be the norm). But your first example actually contained 'à l'école'. Thanks for using the accents. --ColinFine (talk) 22:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Origins of the word coon (as a racial slur)
Is there any connection between the anthropologist Carleton S. Coon, with his controversial work on racial types, and the epithet coon? The article doesn't mention it, or say what race Coon himself was. — FIRE!  in a crowded theatre...  18:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The word 'coon' is an abbreviation of racoon, or possibly barracoon. Its use as an ethnic slur considerably predates Carleton S. Coon. I do not know the etymology of Coon's surname. Algebraist 18:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Based on the picture on this Web site, Coon appears to be white. A Quest For Knowledge (talk)
 * A variant of the name 'Kuhn' perhaps? --130.237.179.182 (talk) 10:51, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to this Web site, '"The insulting U.S. meaning "black person" was in use by 1837, no doubt boosted by the enormously popular blackface minstrel act 'Zip Coon' (George Washington Dixon) which debuted in New York City in 1834, and is said ult. to be from Port. barracoos 'building constructed to hold slaves for sale.'" A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That kinda stinks of hooey (as the next sentence in the article suggests.) --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 20:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 6th ed: "ORIGIN Abbreviation of raccoon". Original meaning as an abbreviation dates to mid 18th century; as slang for a black person, mid 19th century. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)