Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 22

= April 22 =

Italian translation
Can anyone translate the text on this unusual item pictured on the Commons. It has been suggested that it is written in Venetian dialect? Rmhermen (talk) 03:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * First, here is the file, copied to the Language Reference Desk.


 * -- Wavelength (talk) 04:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Secret denunciations against anyone who will conceal favors and services or will collude to hide the true revenue from them."
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 04:21, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not really Venetian dialect, just Italian of some centuries ago. Here there is another picture. --pma (talk) 09:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I gather from the linked article that these are called "lion's mouths" and that the text indicated which kind of accusation it collected. From this text, can we tell if this box would have been for accusations of tax fraud against any businessman or perhaps specifically related to public officials? Rmhermen (talk) 15:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know but indeed it seems specifically related to public officials, like tax collectors, the ones that could be in a position to steal part of the public entries resulting from gratie ("pardons", which is maybe more precise than "favors" here) et officii (duties? I guess it's in any case about a form of taxation). --pma (talk) 20:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

English to Arabic
How do I say "Parkinson's disease" مرض باركنسون? How does it sound? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Your translation is how I would say it. --Xuxl (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How does it sound? par-kin-sens? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * An Arab speaker encountering the name for the first time would say it "Bar-kin-soon", but if familiar with English would say something close to the standard English pronunciation. --Xuxl (talk) 20:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Programmatical
Can anyone correct the grammar used in the following from our article on Adolf Hitler? Per this discussion "Programmatical" isn't a word. I think the correct word would be "programmatic" but I'm not sure.

"Encouraged by this early support, Hitler decided to use Ludendorff as a front in an attempted coup later known as the Beer Hall Putsch (sometimes as the Hitler Putsch or Munich Putsch). The Nazi Party had copied Italy's fascists in appearance and also had adopted some programmatical points, and in 1923, Hitler wanted to emulate Benito Mussolini's 'March on Rome' by staging his own 'Campaign in Berlin'." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Then the interesting (IMO) question is: where does this word "programmatic" come from? It seems to me a bit of political jargon, and not older than the 20's, although I could be completely wrong. But can't one say: "..some points of their program"? pma (talk) 15:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Program seems to be the German equivalent to political platform. Whilst the National Socialist Program does stem from 1920, the term was in use earlier.  The German WP mentions the Erfurt Program (the platform of the Social Democrats) from 1891, which was based on an earlier program from 1875.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I realise this is OR but (despite the claims in the discussion you linked to) 'programmatical' is in the OED.  It claims that it is equivalent to 'programmatic' as you suggested.  Martlet1215 (talk) 22:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd make it and adopted some points of their program(me), anyway. &mdash;Tamfang (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, certainly much more lucid. Bessel Dekker (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What does the word sativus mean?
Sativus? 78.146.109.34 (talk) 21:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * sativus. Algebraist 21:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The word sativus means "sown" or "cultivated". -- Wavelength (talk) 21:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) It's an adjective, "that is sowed", as opposed to silvester, wild. Maybe you know the word sator, sower (like in the sator square) --pma (talk) 21:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Many cultivated plants, as for instance oat, belong to a genus in which there are many more (usually silvester) species (cf. avena). The binomial nomenclature of such cultivated plants usually bear the adjective sativus/sativa as the second name. Pallida  Mors  13:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Quick translation of German phrase

 * wo man sich ständig mit den Armen abstützen muss

Google gives me "where you are constantly with the poor must shore"..... 147.9.235.231 (talk) 23:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's "shore" as in "shore up", or "support", not "shore" as in "sea". "Arm" can translate as "arm" (as in "limb with a hand at the end of it") and also in the plural "poor people", from the adjective "arm" meaning "poor"). Google has chosen the wrong sense of "Armen".
 * "Where you must support yourself constantly with your arms" is a probable translation (having found the source of the sentence). Tonywalton Talk 23:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And my MacBook's Sherlock translation channel, which uses Systran says "where one must constantly push away with the levers". Just goes to show that online translation can really get confused without context. Tonywalton Talk 23:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that does make sense. Thanks. 147.9.235.231 (talk) 00:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Tony's (human, non-machine) translation, "Where you must support yourself constantly with your arms". —Angr 05:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)