Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 25

= April 25 =

Dying of "aspiration"
I read a report in today's paper of a man who died of a drug overdose and "aspiration". That's what the caption on the photo said. I thought they must have meant something else, but this "aspiration" was repeated in the article. I imagine they really meant pulmonary aspiration or aspiration pneumonia. Aspiration, by itself, is an activity we all engage in all the time - it's a synonym for breathing. Has this become recognised medical jargon for either of the conditions I mentioned? It doesn't seem to bode well for young people, who are encouraged to have aspirations for a successful life, and who may have second thoughts if they discover it can kill them. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In medicine "aspiration" can refer to the inhalation of foreign substances which then reduce the function of the tracheobronchial ducts. It seems that drugs, dust, but also "harmless" objects like chewing gum can then lead to sudden death.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 07:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In a drug overdose, the aspiration was most likely vomit, so would be aspiration pneumonia. "Aspiration" is also used for needle biopsies, where something is removed for analysis with a needle (eg bone marrow aspiration, aspirating a cyst etc).KoolerStill (talk) 08:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Jack, could we say that aspiration-as-breathing is an intransitive verb, and the other, transitive? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I see what you mean, Deb. Of course, "aspiration" is a noun; the verb is "aspire".  **(Light goes on)**
 * And that brings me to the source of my confusion. There are 2 verbs: "aspire" means to seek some goal; "aspirate" has a range of meanings, in medical, linguistic and other contexts.  The noun from both verbs is "aspiration", but the meaning differs correspondingly.   From now on, I will aspire to understand this.  I'm aspirating more freely now.  Thanks.  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the journo mixed up aspiration and asphyxiation? --Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

French Translations: 5
How would I translate, "The brothers to whom I speak are my brothers"? Would it be "Les frères à qui je parle sont mes frères"? Thanks for the help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 07:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I dislike your first use of "brother". A person is not a "brother" to the general public. He's a brother only to his own brothers. You may say: "The men whom I spoke to are my brothers." -- Toytoy (talk) 08:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * A couple of quibbles with that, Toytoy. They could be children, or a mixture of boys and adults.  "The people I spoke to were my brothers" would be the best way of saying it.  You could use "... to whom I spoke", but that's a little formal.  "... whom I spoke to" is a mixture of formality and ... something else.  --  JackofOz (talk) 10:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind that the OP wanted help with translating the phrase into French, not a critique of the original sentence. The double use of brothers would make perfect sense in the following contexts:
 * a) He's been speaking to a pair (or more) of brothers, perhaps twins, and wants to clarify to a third party that he is also related to them.
 * b) He's been speaking to monks, who are also, as it happens, related to him.
 * c) He's speaking jive to express solidarity with people to whom he is also related.
 * The translation would, of course, vary depending on which of these senses was intended. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:29, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See Relative clause. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You could say "...sont les miens", "(the brothers) are mine", although that doesn't really repeat "brothers" the second time, if that's what you're going for. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It is just made up. I would appreciate a "yes" or a "no" to my question if that is not too hard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 02:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, in most possible meanings of the sentence, it is a correct translation. --Lgriot (talk) 03:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say "Vous, à qui je parle, sont mes frères." (You, to whom I speak, are my brothers) The Jade Knight (talk) 13:18, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * "Vous, à qui je parle, êtes mes frères." is the correct grammatical sentence. — AldoSyrt (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Apart from all the other concerns raised, I think auxquels is better than à qui. —Tamfang (talk) 22:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Neither better nor worse in general. But "Vous, auxquels je parle, êtes mes frères" sounds strange for a French native speaker — AldoSyrt (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

How do you call this?
Let's say Jean speaks two languages: French (native, perfect) and English (acquired, "fluent"). He doesn't know some particular frequently used words in English. Whenever he needs to use one of them, he says the corresponding French word in a "faking" manner (e.g., beef -> boef). In school, he could never pass an English test. In life, he could usually make it. How do you describe this level of bilingualism? Is he truly bilingual? -- Toytoy (talk) 08:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems odd that he wouldn't know particularly used words. I think you would say he had 'conversational' English. FreeMorpheme (talk) 10:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If he didn't know certain frequently used words like beef, then his English wouldn't be fluent. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know what the situation would be called, but I can give you a more plausible scenario, one that is in fact very frequent: When Chinese learn to speak Japanese, they will often use unnecesarily high-level language. This is because a large amount of the Japanese language is Chinese loanwords, and the Chinese speaker need only find the correlating Chinese word, figure out how it's read, and use that, and in many cases they can make themselves understood this way. Of course, since this doesn't cover the many simpler native Japanese words, in practice this means that many beginning and middle level Chinese speakers of Japanese use excesively convulted and unnecessarily high brow language - instead of telling a guy that he's fat, they will tell him that he is corpulent. TomorrowTime (talk) 21:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ha! True! I found that with a lot of the Chinese I knew in Japan. Half the time people were scratching their heads wondering what they were blathering on about. In any case, it all depends what you mean by 'fluent'. It either means being able to make yourself understood, being able to speak quickly (i.e. fluidity of language (hence the very word 'fluent'), or speaking as well as a native speaker (many of whom have great difficulty making themselves understood or speaking quickly), so it's quite a grey area.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Brother, where art thou?
The HSBC Building, Shanghai has been called "the most luxurious building from the Suez Canal to the Bering Strait". Eight words are on the octagonal entrance hall:


 * ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS WITHIN THE FOUR SEAS
 * http://www.chinapet.net/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=25652850
 * 200903013750_nEO_IMG.jpg
 * See the upper left and right corners of "London".

Is this sentence originally translated from the famous Chinese proverb "四海之內皆兄弟"?


 * 四: Four (si4)
 * 海: Sea(s) (hai3)
 * 之內: Within (zhi1 nei4)
 * 皆: All (Are) (jie1)
 * 兄: Elder brother (xiong1)
 * 弟: Younger brother (di4)

In English, people usually say seven seas. "Four seas," is a common Chinese saying, e.g., "五湖四海" "The Five Lakes and the Four Seas" (the traditional lands of Chinese-speaking peoples). "四海為家" "I can live anywhere within the Four Seas" (homelessness).

Or was it also an original English proverb? -- Toytoy (talk) 09:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing it's based on the quote from the Analects: 論語˙顏淵：「君子敬而無失，與人恭而有禮，四海之內，皆兄弟也. 」 Aas217 (talk) 17:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Out of question, which 5 lakes is this 4 Character Idiom referring to? And which 4 seas is the Chinese custom?68.148.130.72 (talk) 03:58, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The four seas: the Bohai, Yellow Sea, East China Sea, South China Sea. The five lakes: the Dongting Lake, the Poyang Lake, the Tai Lake, Chao Lake, the Hongze Lake. Curiously, Qinghai Lake isn't listed. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Leave, never to return
Is there a word for someone who leaves their home town and never comes back? 80.229.160.127 (talk) 10:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There are words for the adverb - permanently, forever, for good - but no special word for "leaving forever", afaik. --  JackofOz (talk) 12:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How about abandon or vacate. --Thomprod (talk) 12:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a single word, but saying that someone is shaking the dust of from his or her feet at least implies an intention never to return. There's an example of the usage in the first sentence of the book description here. Deor (talk) 17:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That usage has a particularly hostile connotation, given its context in the Bible. It carries a bit of a "leave to rot & good riddance" sort of connotation.  The Jade Knight (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * One could abandon a place, but still return to it later. Vacate normally refers to leaving particular premises, not an entire town.  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ex-patriot?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That means "traitor". "Expatriate" wouldn't do either, as that refers to someone who lives in a country other than their own, not just one who's left the city of their birth.  --  JackofOz (talk) 05:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How interesting. I actually thought 'ex-patriot' was the spelling. I thought that all my life. And considering I am one, it's quite a shock to find out that I've been spelling my own status wrongly for years.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 05:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I get around the problem by considering myself an immigrant rather than an expatriate. —Angr 06:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well that presents a small problem, because you'd be an 'emigrant' on the way out there and an 'immigrant' on the way in.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've often wondered at which exact point does someone moving to another country cease to be an emigrant and start to be an immigrant. Is it the half-way point between the 2 places?  Or is this just another of my characteristic off-the-planet ideas?  --  JackofOz (talk) 05:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't change from being one to the other; you're both, depending on point of view. From an American point of view, I'm an emigrant. From a German point of view, I'm an immigrant. —Angr 05:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Touting one's own works (figurative expression)
What figurative expression, slightly sarcastic, would we use in English to describe someone making (questionable) claims for his own work, for which no outside corroboration is provided or available? This occurs in an academic article, so I can't use "if they do say so themselves" (the subject being plural). The Hebrew expression in the source text, translated literally: "as the baker testifies to his batter" (כפי שמעיד החנתום על איסתו). -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 10:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly brag, boast, "blow one's own horn", crow, gloat, "pat oneself on the back" or showboat. --Thomprod (talk) 12:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I need something understated, even oblique - like "by their own admission" or "soi-disant" (though these aren't quite it). Ideally it would be an illustrative phrase like the "baker:his batter" expression in the original; I just can't recall whether there's a familiar equivalent in English. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Self-styled? Malcolm XIV (talk) 13:12, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Blowing one's own trumpet?--TammyMoet (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The expression about not blowing a trumpet was originally used in relation to gifts of mercy.
 * (Matthew 6:2, World English Bible) "Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward." See http://parallelbible.com/matthew/6.htm -- Wavelength (talk) 18:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Self-proclaimed? According to himself/themselves?  I think "blowing one's own trumpet" is the most familiar expression used in English, but it's inherently not the understated words you seek, because it's not possible to play the trumpet pianissimo.  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Self-styled", "self-defined", along with JackofOz's "self-proclaimed" all contain that hint of doubt about the appropriatness of any claims. I can't think of anything like your example from Hebrew that deals with praising something because it is your own, and not solely on its merits. // BL \\ (talk) 19:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the adage from Erasmus "Suus cuiusque crepitus bene olet" ("A person's own farts smell good to him") seems to convey something of that idea, but I'm pretty sure that it's not an appropriate tag to use in this case. Deor (talk) 04:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you give us the rest of the relevant sentence we might get better ideas. —Tamfang (talk) 22:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Poetry and pop music
Isn´t it strange that many people like pop music (a form of poetry, sometimes quite simple) but don`t have the minimal interest for poetry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.67.37 (talk) 12:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe they like the parts of popular music that have little to do with poetry. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:30, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there are some poets or forms of poetry that are similarly accessible, hence appealing, as pop lyrics. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * While both e.e. cummings and Dr. Seuss wrote poetry, there are many fans of the latter which don't enjoy the former - different tastes. Also, poetry is often presented in a snobby, elitist fashion, ("You don't appreciate Leaves of Grass? You barbarian!") so people may instinctively dislike anything labeled as "poetry", despite its independent merits. -- 75.42.235.205 (talk) 20:30, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Enjoying music whose instrumentation includes voices is not the same as enjoying poetry, even if the voices are uttering verse. (This reminds me of a conversation with my boss many years ago: "You don't like Leonard Cohen? But the words are so great!" "Doesn't change the sad fact that he can't sing.") —Tamfang (talk) 22:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Japanese vocabulary
1) Why do the Japanese use "shaberu" as their word for shovel? Were shovels forbidden during the Edo period or something?

2) About Japanese "pasu" for "pass" in a board game context: What would Edo-period go players have called this action? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.44.12.221 (talk) 20:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See Japanese language. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) The word shaberu is a recent loan word. Early citations are c. 1869. There are many older words such as fukushi (c. 759).
 * 2) The word pasu is heavily associated with modern (foreign) games such as basketball, volleyball, and poker. Edo-period people would not be playing these games. Perhaps if you rephrase the question is could be readdressed.
 * Regards, Bendono (talk) 03:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Shovels were not forbidden during the Edo period. Words get replaced over time, even by loan words from other languages, which take on specific meanings. Take the case of 'guardian' and 'warden', both of which are loanwords from French, and loanwords from the same word! but meaning two different things in English. 'Shaberu' was taken into Japanese from English to specify a particular type of spade (and actually, what the Japanese would call a 'shaberu' I wouldn't call a shovel - very common with loanwords into Japanese - take the case of 手紙 which means 'letter' in Japanese, but 'toilet paper' in Chinese - hilarious when you write a letter to someone in China saying 'thank you for your letter' and you get a reply back saying 'I did not send you any toilet paper'). As for 'pasu' with Edo period Go, I would have no idea. I only play shogi.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As for shovel, it is a word for Western style shovel introduced in Meiji period and it could be translated as 丸匙. The word for a traditional Japanese shovel/spade is suki/鋤 . See and . As for pasu, as far as I know, there was no particular expression in Japanese. It could be translated as 'Yasumi/休み' or (Ikkai/一回)Yasumu/休む in today's Japanese. Oda Mari (talk) 07:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"shear deformation"
What is shear deformation?68.148.130.72 (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Shear deformation is a deformation state of the material which occurs when a shear force is applied on it. By the way, this question should go RD/Science. - DSachan (talk) 22:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Shearing (physics) may also be of help. Deor (talk) 22:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)