Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 9

= April 9 =

Affrikaans
What is a "geolect":?68.148.145.190 (talk) 06:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * A version of a language characteristic of a particular geographical area. It's a more specific way of saying 'a regional dialect'. --Nick Boalch \ talk 09:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

objective, neutral phrasing for the worst things a country is able to do (q removed)
This question has been removed as it is not appropriate for the reference desks. Please refer to the discussion here, which you are welcome to join in if you wish. --Richardrj talkemail 10:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Unlike all of you, I am not interested in a debate. You want me to debate you, but I just want to learn a good phrasing.  I'm not going to join your debate.  I will learn a correct phrasing here or elsewhere and then find a forum that will answer me.  I have already found ONE good-faith answer, someone told me to read Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.  However that is not immediately at my disposal, and anyway I am not interested in all of American history -- just some of its worst actions, which unfortunately that respondent did not specify.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.175.226 (talk) 10:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, you can't phrase this question as it's currently conceived in an objective way, because it invites a subjective answer. What do you mean by 'worst'? You could ask an objective question inviting a purely factual answer, for instance, 'Which individual action by the government of the United States has caused the most deaths?', but the answer to such a question would be separate from issues of morality, 'goodness' and right and wrong. (For instance, one of the examples already offered, the killing of some 220,000 people in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, has been extensively justified using the precepts of several ethical systems. Whether you agree with those justifications is up to you.) --Nick Boalch \ talk 11:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This question has been bouncing around various desks for a couple of days.--KageTora (talk) 19:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Last name, first name
I've seen a few examples in Germany and Austria of officials and staff members of one kind or another being referred to in writing by their last name and then their first name. For example, the other day I was given a form by an employee who had signed his name in an official capacity. On the form, his name was printed "last name, first name" and he even wrote his signature in the same order. It seems to come up in official documents a lot. In the UK, you might see "Smith, John" in lists and whatnot, but it doesn't seem to come up nearly as often as it does here. Is this a common form? --Richardrj talkemail 11:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I've only encountered it sporadically here in Germany. —Angr 11:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * One interesting example in the UK comes from the history of cricket prior to 1962, when the order of names reflected class distinctions. Working-class professional cricketers, 'players', played on the same teams as amateurs of higher social class, 'gentelemen', who could afford to play the sport at a more-or-less professional level without drawing pay. Amongst other distinctions in treatment, players were listed on scorecards with their initials after their surnames (e.g. Rhodes, W, whereas gentlemen were listed with initials first (e.g. WG Grace). --Nick Boalch \ talk 13:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hungarian names are in surname first name order. That might have influenced Austria, but I can't say anything about Germany.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's just because they are in Japan, and have got used to doing it that way. I know I did.--KageTora (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, I've been using the surname, name order forever, guess it rubbed on me in school, where that was the prefered order here in Slovenia. I'm told we actually use the name, surname order, but the opposite just sounds much more right to me. As much so that it downright bugged me when people in Japan used the name, surname order when refering to me - I'd keep telling people to go ahead and go surname, name on me, since I'm much more used to that. Looking back now, maybe that just made me look like a fervent weeaboo, though :/ TomorrowTime (talk) 19:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you see it in official forms and the name is printed underneath in the order surname, first name, then a German signing it might assume that this is the required order and oblige. Given that failing to fill in forms to a T in Germany can get you into all sorts of trouble it's better to be safe than sorry. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it Italian? What does it mean?
Are those sentences in Italian or in some local dialect of Italy? What do they mean in English?

1) Che pena! 2) Sem chi! 3) Ma varda lì, cuma la s'è ridota a forsa di mangiar le ortiche. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.14.48.55 (talk) 11:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's a variety of the Lombard language (which has no standardized orthography).
 * 1) "What trouble"! (or "What a pain!")
 * 2) "We are here!" (would be "Siamo qui!" in Italian)
 * 3) "But look (varda/guarda) there, how (cuma/come) she has *ridota* herself by force (forsa/forza) of eating nettles." I'm unsure about this one, particularly about "ridota". If it means "ridotta" it would mean "reduced" (lost weight? withered away?).
 * Do you have any context? Is this about ruminants? ---Sluzzelin talk  12:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * People eat nettles too. —Angr 13:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Correct; I'd say 1) is more exactly "what a pity", (how pitiful she is). "Reduced" is ok. This is from Pier Paolo Pasolini's novel & film Teorema";in 3) they are speaking about the servant, that in the end eats nettles to do penance. Nettles by the way are great in risotto and frittata but I fear she ate them raw. --pma (talk) 15:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The number 3 sounds Milanese to me and is: But look there (at her), how she has reduced herself (in a bad state) by dint of (or through) eating nettles. In standard Italian it would be Ma guarda lì, come si è ridotta a forza di mangiare ortiche. In Italy, nettles are eaten expecially in the Risotto, which is tipical of Milan, but it could have also a metaphorical meaning. --151.51.38.57 (talk) 15:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

French Translations
Hi, I have a few questions on some French translations - thankyou very much for any help:

1. I am supposed to translate (English - French), "Where is the table?" and "Where is it?" (where "it" is representative of the table). So possibly "Ou est la table?" and "Ou est-elle?" (a grave accent on the "u" for both "Ou's"). I am confused about the second translation because I am not sure whether it should be "Ou est-elle?" or "Ou est-la?" (but I am somewhat sure that the first one is correct).

2. Similarly, I translated "I beg your pardon; I have it here." (where "it" represents "pencil") to "Pardon; le voici.". Would it also be correct to translate "Pardon; je l'ai ici."?

3. In English, we may say "Here he is." and "He is here.". Can I translate, "Le voici." and "Il est ici." respectively? Would they both be correct?

4. May I use "elle" and "il" for feminine and masculine nouns respectively? Or is there something different for "it"?

5. I am supposed to translate, "Where are John's and Mary's books?". Is this a correct (French) translation, "Ou sont les livres de Jean et de Marie?"? I am just confused whether I am to repeat the "de" before each person (assume a grave accent above the "u" in "Ou").

6. I am supposed to translate, "She has brothers and sisters." and "Where are they?" (where "they" is representative of her brothers and sisters (so a "mixed gender group")). Would the correct translations be "Elle a des freres et des soeurs." (with a grave accent over the first "e" in "frere") and "Ou sont ils?" (a grave accent over the "u" in "Ou" is assumed) respectively. I am particularly unsure about the use of "ils" in the second translation ("Ou sont ils?"). This uncertainty on my part is not regarding the distinction between "ils" and "elles" but rather whether "ils" should be different as a direct object.

7. Lastly, I am to translate "Where are the pupils' things?" and "They are in the other room.". So, would the translations be "Ou sont les affaires des eleves?" (with a grave accent over the "u" in "Ou" and an acute and grave accent over the "e's" in "eleves" consecutively) and "Elles sont dans l'autre salle." respectively? I am unsure of the second translation, especially the use of "Elles". My justification of this usage is that "les affaires" is feminine plural so I should use "elles" but again this is relevant to my fourth question.

Thankyou very much to anyone who can provide some insight into these translations. I have been worried about these for sometime and thought that the reference desk would be the best place to ask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 14:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See TypeIt.org - Type foreign characters easily. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See Clavier multilingue en ligne LEXILOGOS &gt;&gt;. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See Pronoun and Subject (grammar) and Direct object. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See French pronouns. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See French personal pronouns. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds a lot like homework, however, you've done the work so:

1. "Où est-elle" is correct.

2. Gramatically correct, but unnatural sounding.

3. Both correct.

4. I don't quite understand the question I'm afraid. Neutral gender is not used in French, so it's either "il" or "elle", no third option.

5. "Où sont les livres de Jean et de Marie?" would tend to imply that you are talking about two sets of books, one set that belongs to Marie, another to Jean. If you are talking about books that belong to *both* Jean and Marie, then you would say "où sont les livres de Jean et Marie ?". The distinction, however, is not obvious and both might be used pretty much interchangably.

6. "Où sont-ils ?" is correct (note the hyphen).

7. You are correct. Equendil Talk 16:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The correct spelling is interchangeably. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thankyou both for your help - I appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 18:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't we have a "Don't ask for homework" template somewhere? doktorb wordsdeeds 09:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that would be an over-keen application of the rule. As it says at the top of the page:
 * "If your question is homework, show that you have attempted an answer first, and we will try to help you past the stuck point. If you don't show an effort, you probably won't get help. The reference desk will not do your homework for you."
 * I think it's fair to say that the user did attempt the answers. 163.1.176.253 (talk) 10:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that this is not homework either. I am independently learning French from "Heath's Practical French Grammar" (1901) in a non-French speaking country. I picked up the book at a booksale. Since I have absolutely no-one to ask for doubts, I find it unreasonable to question the legality of this question.

Wack (hip-hop slang)
Did "wack" used to mean "good" before it meant "bad"? When Kris Kross said in 1991 that "inside out is wiggity-wiggity-wiggity-wack," they meant that it's good, right? Mike R (talk) 16:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Wack was used in 1986 by Keith Haring in an anti-crack mural 'Crack is Wack' so it meant bad then, the good sense seems to have been later. Perhaps Kris Kross used it in an early positive sense but these kinds of words tend to switch back and forth between positive and negative, whacko for instance meant great in the 1940s.  meltBanana  17:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In the 1960s "wack" was Liverpool slang for "man" - as in the usage "Alright, wack?" --TammyMoet (talk) 17:58, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Supposedly. I'm a scouser, and I've only ever heard non-scousers use that, and telling me it was common in the 60s.. --KageTora (talk) 02:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC) That depends if you were around in the 60s. I was and I distinctly remember Scouse bands using it in interviews.--TammyMoet (talk) 08:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I was born in the early 70s, but my dad, who was born obviously not a few years earlier, tells me that it was false, and maybe just the talk of people in bands. You'd never have heard it in the street. --KageTora (talk) 18:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I realized that Kris Kross wore their clothes backwards, not inside out, so maybe they were denigrating the other style of clothing reversal. Mike R (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think "wack" always meant "bad," and was/is being used in slang to mean "good," just like even "bad" can mean "good." OED gives a theoretical etymology of thwack --> wacky (as in, weird/odd, in a negative sense) --> to wack (as in Crack is Wack). zafiroblue05 | Talk 03:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

How did Chinese in the old time transcribe their Chinese characters which can't be spelled?
How did Chinese "in the old times" transcribe their Chinese characters which can't be spelled like French, English,Korean or Vienamese words? For example: the word "been" in English can be transcribed with phonetic symbols like these : [bi:n], and anyone in any nations in the world who learn English as their second language can splell it easily. But Chinese characters consisting of strokes, dashes, dots ... can't be spelled. I know Korean people also used strokes, dashes, dots...almost same as Chinese, but Korean words can be splelled.Today if we open one contemporary Chinese dictionaries we'll find out that phonetic symbols are printed beside every words,and anyone who learn Chinese today can read the word easily, too. But how about the Chinese in the old times, Chinese in Ming dynasty for instance, how did they transcribe each characters in their dictionary?

Thank you in advance for you reply,

Tykncgmvctt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tykncgmvctt (talk • contribs) 23:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * They didn't. People who could read a dictionary, if there was one in ancient China, were expected to be able to read. Seriously. If there was a word a person couldn't read, they would ask somebody else, I guess. There is a system in Taiwan called bopomofo, which gives the phonetic transcription, and in PRC they use pinyin, but there was nothing like that in older times. It would be like giving a child a phonetic transcription of each letter in English. Not necessary. And in any case, most Chinese don't even know the correct pinyin, meaning that they don't learn to write using phonetic representations. Seriously. There wasn't.--KageTora (talk) 02:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

See the article Fanqie Aas217 (talk) 02:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Before fanqie, people used homophones: "this character is read like ....". Also, most Chinese characters contain a phonetic part (shēng fú 聲符), which indicates exactly or roughly or simply misleadingly (depending on your luck) how the character is pronounced. (Of course the phonetic part indicated correctly how the character was pronounced when the character was first coined; but time flies and sound changes, and the phonetic part becomes a bad phonetic indicator. It's just the same in English: Sound changes but the spellings don't.)--K.C. Tang (talk) 04:59, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

First off, the word "been" is actually pronounced with a short vowel in many dialects of English. Also, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but old Chinese dictionaries such as Kang Hsi sometimes indicated pronunciations by using a rhyme-offset method (as mentioned), and there were also ways to look up characters according to their visual appearance (according to the 214 "radicals" and number of strokes). Chinese characters have also been used in both ancient and modern times to transcribe foreign language words (though often providing only a very crude approximation to the original foreign-language pronunciation). A single visual character will often be pronounced radically differently between Korean, Japanese, and different Chinese dialects, but this is often seen as being more of a positive feature than a drawback... AnonMoos (talk) 01:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to search for ancient examples to see how you transcribe sounds using Hanzi; just look at Coca-Cola and KFC and look at their Chinese articles: zh:可口可乐 and zh:肯德基. You can see how you can use similar sounds as a gloss. --Kjoonlee 17:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See Transliteration into Chinese characters? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)