Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 August 16

= August 16 =

"two cents plain"
Hello ! Please excuse my bad English. How can I translate in French the expression "two cents plain" for waters sold during the Great Depression ? Please, see Carbonated water. Thank you in advance. --Égoïté (talk) 06:19, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Two cents plain" refers to the price of a glass of plain carbonated water at that time. So whatever would be the French equivalent of that drink and its cost, is probably your answer, unless they had a specific term for it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * [Moved from Reference desk/Miscellaneous] The phrase refers to the price of unflavored seltzer water (2 cents) in New York during the Depression; adding chocolate or vanilla syrup would cost more.
 * Googling "For two cents plain" will give you good answers, e.g. Urban Dictionary definition and Big Apple blog entry. In 1959, Harry Golden wrote a memoir of the time and place called For Two Cents Plain that is readily available in libraries and from on-line booksellers [ISBN 978-0-84881-015-3]; an explanatory excerpt from that book is in the Big Apple blog entry above. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * [additional comment] However, translating the idiom would probably depend on the context. I think, for example, that someone offering you an answer "for two cents plain" might be giving you the most basic information without extra details or history; but it might also imply directness, plain-spokenness or bluntness (the unvarnished truth) as well, as in "for two cents plain, the answer is that you're a failure." If you're just translating the original literal meaning of the phrase (say, in writing the Carbonated water article for French Wikipedia), then you can just follow the historical sources above. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I understand. --Égoïté (talk) 10:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just as another thought, For Two Cents Plain was a successful enough book in the United States that there might already be a French or French-Canadian translation from which you could work. —— Shakescene (talk) 23:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Reminds me of Farrell’s Ice Cream Parlour, back in the 1960s and 1970s. Soda water was $0.02 a glass, as seen in this menu: http://www.happyitis.biz/images/Farrells_1963menufountain.jpg. The place had a 1905 theme, but it might well have been a Depression Era price. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

vowel length and gemination in Hebrew dialects
Which dialects of Hebrew (e.g. Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Teimani, etc.), both liturgical and possibly modern, distinguish gemination and/or vowel length? What are good sources which discuss this? Mo-Al (talk) 07:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The word "dialect" is slightly questionable here. The Tiberian massoretic orthography distinguished consonant gemination contrasts in its written symbols (and partially distinguished vowel length contrasts), but many different Jewish communities using very different liturgical pronunciations all used this same witing system.  The most prominent pronunciation in modern times with gemination contrasts is/was the Yemenite.  There's a convenient little article "Pronunciations of Hebrew" in the first edition of Encyclopaedia Judaica...
 * AnonMoos (talk) 12:51, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Gemination in Hebrew is discussed here.
 * Distinction between long and short vowels is discussed (briefly and roughly, including some mistakes) at the end of the chapter here (below the table and above the new chapter shva).


 * Genination is a well-known phenonemon in Ancient Hebrew, and is called: Dagesh Hazak. In modern Hebrew, Gemination is preserved in formal speach (mainly publicly) only, e.g. in radio news, or when reciting poetry/bible, or in synagogues, etc. In an informal speach, gemination can appear only in cases parallel to similar cases in English, e.g. in "bad dog", etc.


 * Distinction between long and short vowels, has existed mainly in the ancient Sephardi dialect (neither in the Yemenite one nor in the Ashkenazi one), but nowadays it's preserved in (some) Sephardi Synagogues only. In an informal speach, such a distinction can appear only in cases parallel to similar cases in English, e.g. in "sofa and" (in US-English accent), etc.
 * HOOTmag (talk) 17:34, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

advance organisers
effects of advance organisers on student perception, performance and attitude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.130.120.206 (talk) 08:05, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What about them? And btw, if this is a homework question, as it appears to be - sorry, you're out of luck here.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Why can't *abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz be a word in any language? --88.76.229.55 (talk) 14:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You must not have heard that song from Sesame Street where they turn the alphabet into a "word". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we even have an article on that song ABC-DEF-GHI, which has the pronunciation . — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  17:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In Spanish, it would probably be pronounced . — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If it's not a word in any language then why is there a ligature for it? -- BenRG (talk) 18:07, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That is Dr. Seuss, after all; perhaps he wanted the Cat in the Hat to come back a second time to teach handwriting? Nyttend (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

What is the preferred term, if there's one, for a person who asks a question here?
I've seen the terms "OP", "questioner", "asker" used by various contributors. It may be purely a matter of style or personal preference, but if there's a persuasive reason why one of the above, or some other alternative, is a better choice, I'd like to know. --173.49.16.37 (talk) 15:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There isn't a fixed rule. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've wondered about that too. I like the term "original questioner." Bus stop (talk) 17:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Querent". BrainyBabe (talk) 17:45, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "OP" seems to be the most common, it is borrowed from online forum jargon. --Tango (talk) 17:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer OP because it's short and also implies that it refers to the original question - depending on context, "questioner" and "asker" could refer to a different inquisitor. Vimescarrot (talk) 17:52, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahh, thanks so much for asking this question! I've wanted to ask this for a long time and never gotten around to it.  What exactly does "OP" mean?  I once thought that it was a typo for "IP", but that idea went out the window when someone used it to refer to me when I asked a question while signed in.  Nyttend (talk) 21:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Original poster, or original post (depending on context). Sadly, WP doesn't have an article on everything, but I do believe it lurks somewhere at the bottom of OP.  Gwinva (talk) 22:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * When the OP is a newcomer, unfamiliar with internet jargon, and speaking English as a second or third language, "original questioner" is the most likely to be understood. --NorwegianBluetalk 23:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

-ant or -ent?
Is there any spelling rule that helps you decide between -ant and -ent word endings correctly please? 78.144.207.41 (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No. 87.68.83.205 (talk) 18:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Often, it's related to whether the related verb was in the first conjugation (-ant) or the second, third, or fourth conjugation (-ent) in Latin. Unfortunately, however, some of the latter words end in -ant if they happen to have passed through French on their way to English. There's no easy way to know the spellings without memorizing them. Deor (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This site http://wordnavigator.com/ends-with/ant/ gives lists of -ant (794) and -ent (1841) words. The lists are not complete.  Inter alia, "cromulent" is missing.    --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In addition, be generally guided by what you see in novels, biographies and quality newspapers, not what you see in doctoral theses, text messages, blogs or wikis (except for advice given on this page, naturally ... well, usually).  There are some words that appear in both forms, such as dependant and dependent, and they're often confused.  The -ant version is usually used as a noun (I have three dependants), the -ent version as an adjective (They are all dependent on me), but some use them interchangeably, and have lexicographical support for this.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No doctoral theses? Adam Bishop (talk) 21:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No. The standard of writing in theses etc is generally not up to scratch, in my experience.  It may be different in papers written by people who are or intending to be language teachers.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Really? I'm pretty sure mine would be rejected if it were terribly written. Adam Bishop (talk)


 * Well, I did say "be generally guided", and "the standard of writing in theses etc is generally not up to scratch". There are exceptions to almost any general statement, and I would of course assume your writing would be such an exception, Adam.  :)  But I have seen theses and major papers written by graduates that contain grammatical and spelling errors that would be shameful coming from even a primary school student.  --  JackofOz (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You must be referring to engineers and scientists. When they can back up their arguments with lab results and hard data, they don't need to write well. Useless humanities degrees like mine require grammar, spelling, and subtle rhetoric :) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "They don't need to write well" - they may well believe this, but it's like thinking one does not need to breathe well because it's enough not to be dead. Humans have been know to live for many days without food, so why bother eating every day - it's obviously a waste of time, isn't it?  If that's their standard, heaven help us.  --  JackofOz (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This can also be one of those countless variants between U.S., British and other Anglophone spellings. "Dependant" is common in British sources, but is so rare in American usage that it looks wrong. For a related topic see WP:ENGVAR. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Translation to Russian
How would I write "Malkin rules, Ovechkin drools" in Russian (using cyrillic letters)? I know how to write their names but that's about it.209.26.166.162 (talk) 20:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You could try to use an internet translator like Babelfish or Intertran; however the phrase is likely meaningless in Russian, as the rhyming scheme will not hold after translation. If you want to insult Ovechkin, it may pay off more to research traditional Russian jeers rather than to attempt to simply translate an English one, since it will likely make no real sense in Russian.  -- Jayron  32  01:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not a native speaker, and I can't think of a rhyming Russian phrase of this meaning. I do recall some independent slang exclamations such as Малкин жжет! и Овечкин - отстой! (approximately corresponding to "Malkin rules!", "Ovechkin sucks!"), so in principle one can combine the two, if nothing better is available. Another possibility might be Малкин рулит, Овечкин сосет - the two expressions do occur in Russian internet slang, but are obviously calqued from English (quite literally meaning "Malkin rules, Ovechkin sucks") and I don't know when they are appropriate. Овечкин сосет in particular would suggest oral sex to many people, so it's pretty extreme. If one must use it, I think it is considered particularly cool to spell it incorrectly - сасет; likewise отстой could be misspelled as ацтой for an additional coolness effect. But I am, as I said, not a native speaker and not a person who naturally uses such expressions, so I might be parodying the whole thing a little here. Use any of these at your own risk. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * OP here on another computer. Thank you both for your help. I was worried it wouln't translate well, I guess some things don't translate. I don't think I'll suggest anything about Ovechkin, the people who would get it might not find it funny. I guess I'll either look for those Russian jeers, or just go with Malkin rules. 67.142.130.22 (talk) 14:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)