Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 August 19

= August 19 =

quebec/canadian word for pacifier
when i was young my parents and myself would call my pacifier a 'suss'. i searched it online and found one person mention that their french canadian nanny would call it a suss as well. he suggested it comes from french and is spelled differently. anyone have info or the correct spelling or origin of this word? i live in montreal so it is likely a word borrowed from french. just curious. thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.190.95 (talk) 01:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well the french wikipedia article at fr:Tétine has "suce" as an alternative in its lead para. Nanonic (talk) 02:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This conjugation suggests that the word in question basically means "sucker" (presumably the French would be the root of the English word). Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's it. My quebecois family uses that term.  Suce it is... -- Jayron  32  03:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting that I remember that word from my childhood, and I grew up in an exclusively Anglophone environment in the northeastern United States. Marco polo (talk) 12:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There are lots of Quebecois in New England; I grew up in New Hampshire, which has a sizable Quebecois population, so it is not inconceivable that if you grew up anywhere in New England you heard the term. -- Jayron  32  17:34, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If it's of any interest, it's usually called a "dummy" in the UK. --Phil Holmes (talk) 16:37, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably because it renders them "mute", yes? The concept as "pacifier", except a lot less euphemistic. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh. I always assumed it was a dummy (as in fake) nipple. --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For some reason, among some Americans, it's a "binky", although that also refers to a favorite blanket. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, in America it's usually binky or nookie or just plain pacifier. Interesting checking Wikt's list of synonyms for pacifier there & seeing what it labels as US, GB, & canada :) L&#9786;g&#9786;maniac chat? 04:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I didn't know it could be called nookie in America too (like wiktionary, I thought that meant something else). That's what a pacifier is called in Swiss German (spelled Nuggi), but not in Standard German. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Anyone feel like giving Quebec French some attention? BrainyBabe (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Appropriate business email sign-off in English, bonus points for Chinese version as well
I'm looking for an appropriate sign-off for business email. Got the signature all sorted out, but the sign-off is bothering me. The joint venture I work for generally uses "Best Regards" but I find it grating. Does anyone have any better suggestions? Also, bonus points for a Chinese equivalent... 218.25.32.210 (talk) 08:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't like "Best regards" either (and you should note that there is no capital R in 'regards') and I go out of my way to avoid using it. I normally go with "Best wishes" or, if the person is known to me, "Many thanks".  --Richardrj talkemail 08:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

If you don't know the other person well, "sincerely" is never out of line. If you do know the other person, "best" (without "regards" or "wishes") is perfectly acceptable. Or, for close friends, "cheers," "ciao" or "ta" would be OK. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:02, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

For Chinese, the standard format is to write 此致 after the main body of the letter (this is indicates that you are done communicating through the text), then either leave two spaces or on another line write 敬禮 (denoting respect on behalf of the letter writer to the recipient).69.203.207.54 (talk) 09:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

'Thanks' works for me. The joy of email is that the medium is (I find) less formal than snail-mail. That said whilst i'm a fan of not dumbing down, I don't like stuffiness for the sake of stuffiness so 'yours sincerely' and the like all end up coming across to me as if i'm being written to by a faceless corporation and not a person. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I write literally hundreds of business e-mails per week in my job with a multinational corporation. The only signature I normally use is my name.  Most often (when addressing people who know me) I just write my first name and my last initial.  When addressing people who don't know me, I have a ready-made signature that puts my full name in a special font, followed by my title, division of the company where I work, phone number, etc., like an old-fashioned letterhead.  If I have made a request or want to acknowledge something someone else has done, I preface my name with the word "Thanks" or, if writing to clients or people I need to please, "Thank you".  Otherwise, for example if I am responding to someone else's request for a file and there is no reason for me to thank them, I leave out the "Thanks".  I do not normally use closing phrases like “Best wishes” or “Best regards” in e-mail.  The one exception might be if I were checking in with someone outside the company with whom I had not communicated in some time or maybe if I were communicating with a client.  Then my preference is “Best wishes”.  But certainly I do not use those phrases for internal communications, nor does anyone else in my company.  Marco polo (talk) 12:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Latinise the term 'creative juice' please?
Hi - the context is this: 'The gondola advanced down a canal welling with a velvety black liquor (called by some creative juice) possessed of properties that, although perfectly astounding, will not be listed here' - can someone latinise 'creative juice' please? Ta Adambrowne666 (talk) 12:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Given that they're speaking euphemstically, it's hard to say. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What sort of latinization is called for? I looked up the word Latinise, because I'm not familiar with this. But there still seem to be several possibilities. Can you give an example of the sort of thing you're looking for, even if it is less than perfect? Maybe my ignorance is showing, but I'm just curious to know what latinise means in this context. Bus stop (talk) 13:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing Adam's writing some sort of historical fiction or fantasy story, and wants some authentic-looking obligatory-badass-Latin-interjections? Depending on what you mean by 'creative', you might try sucus inventionis or liquor ingeniosus. Though honestly, it sounds like what you're describing is really melancholia. -Silence (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * By latinise I meant precisely 'gimme some authentic-looking obligatory-badass-Latin-interjections', but maybe it's the wrong term - anyway, 'melancholia' is a great idea, Silence - I'm gonna go with that. Thanks heaps. Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

'runs in the family' jokes?
any 'runs in the family' jokes? diarrhea, baseball etc. already tried googling —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.224.23.8 (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2009 (UTC) Yes, it's true. Diarrhoea is hereditary. It runs in your jeans. Steewi (talk) 00:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Big noses run in our family, 86.4.181.14 (talk) 07:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For five generations we've repaired nylon stockings. --- OtherDave (talk) 10:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear long legs run in Usain Bolt's family. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:42, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

French "unnecessary" sh-like sound after some words
I've noticed that the French pronounce sometimes an "unnecessary" sh-like (as in shoot) sound after some words. For example, here:, click in Les insectes->vocabulaire-> ant drawing. That person says something like "une furmish" (which actually sounds more like a German ch as in ich bin. I'd like to know more about that. Does it have a name? Do some dialects use more than others? Thanks. --Belchman (talk) 18:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The IPA symbol for the sound you're talking about is [ç], and it is the same as the German ich-Laut. I heard it when I was in Toulouse, especially in oui, which was pronounced [wiç]. I don't know if it's restricted to Meridional French though; neither that article nor French phonology says anything about the phenomenon. +Angr 19:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The phenomenon (which is really just devoicing the palatal approximant so it becomes a little bit fricative is not restricted to French. I used to notice it in my Russian teacher's careful pronunciation of words like 'синиӣ' with an 'ӣ' on the end. And something similar must be behind the realisation of 'll' as 'ʒ' in parts of the New World, and also Portuguese 'ch' as in 'chamar' ( = Spanish 'llamar'). --ColinFine (talk) 19:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe this phenomenon is standard French, but that's as much as I can say. Bʌsʌwʌʟʌ   Speak up!  20:11, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a definition on French Wiktionary at http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/ouiche ... AnonMoos (talk) 01:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I heard a phonetician say that this is some discourse effect indicating finality or decisiveness or something. Mo-Al (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I noticed that many French speakers, especially women (no idea why), don't articulate oui at all, but instead quickly inhale, as if they had a hiccup. It's probably just another quirk of French phonology that they don't teach at French language courses. — Kpalion(talk) 11:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that's quite common. It's the French equivalent of "uh huh" (or however you spell it). -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 12:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Republic of South Africa being referred to as S. Africa or similar
This might be a simple case of puratism, but it seems to annoy me whenever I see South Africa (the country) referred to as 'S. Africa' or similar. I've seen this happen in news articles from CNN, BBC and elsewhere and I've even once sent in a comment to CNN telling them that South Africa (as in the country) cannot be referred to as S. Africa s this refers to 'Southern Africa'. Here's an example:

Now tell me, are they correct to do this, or is it wrong? Rfwoolf (talk) 21:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The example you link only shows your issue in the headline, as far as I can tell. When space is a concern, as it always is with headlines, anything goes. Were they to do it in the body of an article, I would think it unnecessary... improper? Not sure. But in a headline, again, anything can and often is acceptable. 61.189.63.183 (talk) 22:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm I guess maybe with Headlinese you can abbrev everything Rfwoolf (talk) 22:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO it's a question of space in headlines and editorial policy, where it is extremely rare to use the formal full form of a country. The BBC for example refers to 'France', not 'the French republic' or 'the Republic of France' ('la république française'). I have never seen it refer to the UK as 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' in a headline (which would get rather tedious), a term which one finds on official documents such as passports. As for the S, well in geo-coordinates the N stands for North and the S stands for S etc. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 08:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you need to get over your annoyance, Rf. "S" or "S." may sometimes be used to abbreviate "Southern", but it is also very common for it to abbreviate "South" -- for example, in street addresses ("1 S. Elm St.") and driving directions ("take I-75 30 miles S to exit 15") as well as place names (SC or S.C. = South Carolina). The online Encarta dictionary under encarta.msn.com gives 8 possible expansions for "S.": Sabbath, Saint, Saturday, Saxon, Sea, September, South, and Sunday. Note that "Southern" is not even on the list. --Anonymous, 03:33 UTC, August 20/09.


 * "S." is more likely to mean "South". SC for South Carolina; or SD for South Dakota, also abbreviated S. Dak. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 03:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * When I worked data entry for the local tax-collector, we had to shorten "street" to "st" "drive" to "dr" and "lane" to "ln", "south" to "s" etc unless they were part of the street name so "South Long street" would be "s long st" but there were tougher names like "West South Beach Avenue" (w south beach ave) or "Lois Lane street" (lois lane st). — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  04:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm but folks you don't seem to see the point... 'S' may very well be an abbreviation for 'South' and 'Southern', but you cannot abbreviate half the name of a country. You never hear of 'U States of America' or 'U Kingdom', so too the name 'South Africa' should either be abbreviated in full ('SA' or 'RSA') or written in full (South Africa). In fact if you asked me, 'RSA' doesn't make for such a bad brand. "So where are you going for a holiday this winter? ... Oh, RSA?". I guess the puratism part might come in that you should not partially abbreviate country names. Rfwoolf (talk) 12:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well it is hard to guess what the A could be in S.A, but it is really easy to guess what the S could be in S. Africa. I have seen recently in the papers "SKorea" even without the dot or space. Lgriot (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * See, after reading 'SKorea' I did not confuse it with the Southern region of Korea. But in the case of South Africa, Africa is a continent, not a country. So S Africa would very well mean the Southern region of Africa. What's more there's a country called North Korea, but there isn't a country called North Africa. What would happen if we wanted to actually refer to the South region of Africa, in those cases they usually say 'Southern Africa' or 'Sub-Saharan Africa'. Rfwoolf (talk) 12:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, RSA? — Emil J. 12:28, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, R of SA? Rfwoolf (talk) 12:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ironically, it used to be "Union of South Africa", or "USA" for short (?) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see someone post some examples of where the prefix "S." is definitely an abbreviation for "Southern" rather than "South". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Google shows some results for S. Methodist University and S. Baptist Convention. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see. Those are proper names, just like all the "Souths" are. So one would have to know which one it is, in any given case. Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing those two items that way, as Southern Baptist is usually spelled out, and Southern Methodist is typically abbreviated SMU. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting back to the original question, he asks if it's "wrong", which I assume means grammatically wrong as opposed to "morally wrong" or whatever. My old Webster's lists capital "S." as a valid abbreviation for both "South" and "Southern". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But here 'South' does not mean 'South'. Here 'South' is part of the name. The 'South' in 'South Africa' does not mean 'South', it means 'Hey, you left out half my name!'. :) Rfwoolf (talk) 13:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The original respondent pointed out that it might be used in a headline where space is at a premium, and presumably the meaning would either be understood or would be clarified in the body of the accompanying article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough I guess - in fact I'm normally a fan of headlinese. So then, what if it appears in body text? As in, "Pakistan plays S. Africa this Wednesday at The Wanderers cricket ground". I would suppose that in such a case it's incorrect.Rfwoolf (talk) 13:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The tricky part is trying to define who has any say in what's "correct". Perhaps in legal documents it would need to spell out "Republic of South Africa". But unless there's a Grammar Governance Board, newswriters could write it however they feel like. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, trouble is that there are 'Grammar Governance Boards' - such as English Purists associations and language societies - yes there are people still out there who can tell us what is 'correct' and what not. Trouble is you can get around all of them by just calling them purists. Rfwoolf (talk) 14:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think if we can have full initialisms like USA (or, U.S. of A) that abbreviating only half of the country's name doesn't seem problematic or wrong. After all, it may be the country's name but it's still a direction.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  17:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * But the 'Grammar Governance Boards' are self appointed "defenders of the language" - anyone can claim to be an "expert". There is no de jure or even de facto reason to adhere to their recommendations. English doesn't have the equivalent of French's Académie française. There's no body with a legal mandate, or even with widespread community consensus, to officiate what is or is not "correct" English. It's wrapped up in the whole descriptivist/prescriptivist dichotomy. -- 128.104.112.102 (talk) 20:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't have much to add here, except that as a South African, I sometimes write "S. African" when space is constrained, and wouldn't be offended if others did it in similar situations. In South Africa, you're more likely to see S.A. in a headline, however. --196.210.182.23 (talk) 20:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)