Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 December 26

= December 26 =

Aussie English
I was watching a documentary on Australia and came a cross a word I didn't understand. Near the end of the show, an angry shopkeeper is griping about the overwhelming number of bullfrogs that have invaded and he says that "They're in the lift and the lorry and all around the..." I hesitate to even try to guess how to spell it... "malunga-gulachuck?" "Milungagullashuk?" I more or less assumed it was a made-up word poking fun at what sounds to North American ears to be quaint or silly sounding placenames, but I'm curious as to whether it might be a legitimate place or thing. Any help? Matt Deres (talk) 01:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As I recall, just nonsense words. I found the episode extra funny because there is a "mistake" about Australia every minute; e.g the word "lorry" is little used. Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

作 and 做
What exactly is the distinction between the chinese characters 作 and 做? I looked them both up and they seem to have the same pronounciation (zuò) and both mean to do or to make. Can they pretty much be used interchangably? Yakeyglee (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * They are not interchangeable. 作, when used in practice, means rather negative things like cheat, make mischief, and show off.  做 often means rather positive things like make love, accomplish, and dream.  Of course, there are many uses that are not strictly negative or positive, but the general negative/positive feeling still remains connected. --  k a i n a w &trade; 03:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There are also cases in which one or the other is used in a compound word (for example, 工作、作文、etc.) and can't be replaced with the other. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 17:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * In all of the examples I gave, they are compound words - which is normal Chinese. Single-character words are not very common.  It screams "foreigner" when using single-character words, such as "green" (lu) instead of the proper "green color" (luse). --  k a i n a w &trade; 04:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Comma use
Hi folks,

I've been noticing recently, in various places (not just on Wikipedia), that some people seem to be using (or not using) commas in sentence lists differently then how I've always been taught. For example, I've been seeing:

In this example sentence, there are a number of items including item 1, item 2 and item 3.

(note that item 2 and item 3 are not directly related, so purposely excluding a comma between them would not be appropriate) I've always been taught that that it's more correct to do:

In this example sentence, there are a number of items including item 1, item 2, and item 3.

This is probably slightly pedantic on my part, but... like I said, I've been noticing it quite often recently for some reason. Am I off base here, somehow? Thanks. — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 02:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The commas in lists were originally a shorthand way of saying "and", so by including that last comma in the second example you're basically saying "and and". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Really?!? I've honestly never heard that before... and, I do have a Websters Quick Reference here that says to use a comma. Is this something new (the Websters that I have is a couple decades old... and my Grammar School education is as well, for that matter). — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 04:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You should read serial comma for a complete overview of this question, frequently debated. --Lgriot (talk) 04:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahh.... thanks! — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 04:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yet another WP:ENGVAR issue, I see... *sigh* — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 04:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it's something old. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Now that I know what to look for, I see: MOS:SERIAL, which covers this issue nicely. Thanks guys. — V = I * R  (talk to Ω) 04:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Whichever option you choose, may I just say that I would have put a comma between "items" and "including". --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * And I would have put a question mark at the end of that question, Jack. :) --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( Talk? )  15:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, really? It's not a question in my books, so no question mark is required.  :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   18:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Anything that starts with 'may I just say that...' sounds very much (grammatically) like a question to me, though. --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( Talk? )  13:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * In form, it appears to be a question. But I was not asking anyone's permission to say/write anything, I was merely using a polite form of expression.  "May I say that ...", "may I add that ...", "might I suggest that ..." are all ways of really saying "I am now going to say/add/suggest that ...".  Other sentences that look like questions but are not include "Would you please shut up" (that's a command) and "Would you excuse me" (that's an entreaty).  Weird stuff, this English.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   18:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

meaning of word
I want to know the meaning of the word "zarandela" "a la zarandela..." It is mentioned on a Puertorican christmas carol. Thanks Annie Maldonado San Juan, PR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.215.122 (talk) 14:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't find a translation, but it seems to be the name of a song, and zarandear means "to shake", if that makes any sense in the context of the carol. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I've also been unable to translate it. I don't speak the language, but it seems to be the name or nickname of a person. Matt Deres (talk) 17:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't speak the language either, but I think it may be pointed out that it sounds strikingly similar to 'Cinderella'. Maybe this is stating the obvious, and I apologize for that, but if it really is a name, as Matt says, this may be relevant. --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( Talk? )  17:35, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything's possible, but "Cinderella" got her name from cleaning the cinders out of the family stove or chimney or something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Cinderella" in Spanish is rendered as Cenicienta, which literally means "ashen" or "ash-gray". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't find "zarandela" in the Spanish wikipedia either. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Bugs was on the right track, with a word deriving from zarandear -to shake. I wonder if the reference in what the OP describes as a Christmas carol is to "shepherds quake at the sight". And the usual disclaimer: I don't speak Spanish. Bielle (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Could be related. The word for shepherd is pastor, which makes it obvious why a church minister is often called by that title. Zarandela would seem to be a feminine word, so it's hard to tell. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm asking at the Spanish wikipedia. We'll see (1) if my Spanish is comprehensible to them; and (2) if they can provide an explanation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's their explanation ...


 * Es complicado. «Zarandelo» es un dialectalismo que significa trompo que baila zarandeado; en esa canción, además, está usado metafóricamente, así que no es fácil la adaptación.


 * La expresión "a la zarandela" aparece en varias canciones (entre ellas, alguna de navidad y alguna de fiesta, puede leerla aquí). Se refiere a una mujer, que supuestamente gusta a quien habla y que tiene un carácter alegre, etc.

... and my attempt at a translation:


 * It is complicated. "Zarandelo" is a dialectism which signifies spinning top which dances shaken; in that song, moreover, it is used metaphorically, in a way that is not easily adapted [into other languages].


 * The expression "a la zarandela" appears in various songs (among them, some of Christmas and some of holidays, you can read it here). It refers to a woman, who supposedly is pleasing to who is speaking and who has a lively character, etc.

←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * And it's risky to make assumptions, so I just wonder if this word is connected with the Italian lively dance called the Tarantella. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. The Spanish for tarantella is tarantela. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It could just be a derivation of zarandearse (cf B i elle's answer), which in regional use relates to making swinging movements of the body parts.  Pallida  Mors  23:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Doesn't really make sense in context: "A la zarandela de mi corazon." Could it be related to zarandar -, 4th meaning in the DRAE - Separar de lo común lo especial y más precioso (Separate the special and most valuable from the ordinary)?. --NorwegianBluetalk 00:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hum... I really don't know what to say. I have the impression that the derivation is zarandear->zarandelo (top [movement])->zarandela. The de mi corazón bit is basically my beloved.... I really hope that some Boricua fellow wikipedian shed some insight, though. :) Pallida  Mors  02:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

word for brand name that becomes generic name
Is there a word that describes a brand name that becomes the generic term for some product? Examples include kleenex, q-tip, and xerox. I thought of eponym, but that is not quite right.--Eriastrum (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's a single word, but genericized trademark should be of interest. - Nunh-huh 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Nunh-huh, that looks like the right term (although I was hoping for something snappier!)--Eriastrum (talk) 21:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The article on genericized trademark uses the term genericide. This word seems to "wrong" to me, because normally XXXicide means killing XXX, whereas genericide is "killing" the brand and "creating" a generic term.  The word isn't in the Shorter Oxford yet, but googling it :-) finds about 213,000 results. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Genericide is also the term that is used on Language Log sometimes (e.g., ). r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 02:03, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Have a look at trademark erosion.Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 27 December

2009 (UTC)
 * The collared generic terms for products usually are blend, eponym, and compound (Compound linguistics). However, they are not easy to define if there aren’t reliable background information. That is, there may be some information to sound like ‘blend’ now and different information to sound you like ‘eponym’ or ‘compound’ in other times. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I find Mihkaw napew's post completely incomprehensible. Is it a POE or is he/she really saying something?--Eriastrum (talk) 21:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

China
Is china named after China or vice-versa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jc iindyysgvxc (talk • contribs) 21:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As you would expect from the pages you've linked to, "china" on the table acquired its name from the country: that is, "china" is a shortened form of "Chinese porcelain". As the first page you linked states. "Porcelain can informally be referred to as "china" in some English-speaking countries, as China was the birth place of porcelain making." - Nunh-huh 22:23, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, the Etymology section in the article on China has a section on the etymology of the English word for the country, as well as for the porcelain. --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( Talk? )  00:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC)