Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 December 7

= December 7 =

Could Guinea Be The Result Of The People?
What is the etymology of "Guinea". It is used in several polities, such as Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Papua New Guinea, Dutch New Guinea, Netherlands New Guinea, Equatorial Guinea. Considering this polities, might they be named after the actual Guinea?

What is the entomology of "Papua"?174.3.102.6 (talk) 02:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Adrian Room's Placenames of the World, "Guinea" originally applied to a "coastal region [of Africa] that extended from present Senegal to as far south as Gabon. It derives from Tuareg aginaw, ‘black people.’" The same work says that Papua "takes its name from the Papuans who are its indigenous people. Their own name represents Malay pua-pua, 'frizzled,' referring to their tightly curled hair." Deor (talk) 03:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For on-Wikipedia etymology of the "original Guinea", see also Guinea (region) and Akal n-Iguinawen. The German article (de:Guinea (Region)) also mentions the Ghana Empire as well as the Latin word genu ("knee"), for the arched coastal line, as possible etymologies. Another essay I found off WP states that "Djennie [...] is considered to have originated the much discussed name of Guinea" . ---Sluzzelin talk  10:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I suspect that Guinea has as much to do with New Guinea as Zeeland has to do with New Zealand or York has to do with New York. Alansplodge (talk) 17:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Willamette
What is the entomology of "Willamette"?174.3.102.6 (talk) 06:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't seem to have an article on the Fauna of Oregon, but maybe you can find this book at your local library. +Angr 07:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Please note the difference between etymology (the history of words) and entomology (the study of insects).--Shantavira|feed me 08:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * A favorite joke of my uncle: Do you know the difference between an etymologist and an entomologist?  The etymologist does. Dismas |(talk) 11:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Etymology is the study of bugs in the language. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The origins and pronunciation of "Willamette" are in the first two sentences of this Wikipedia article: Willamette River. The name derives from that of a Clackamas Indian village, and the spelling from the French explorers who first wrote it down alphabetically. —— Shakescene (talk) 11:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Potahto
In the song "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off" there is the couplet: "You say tomayto and I say tomahto/you say potayto and I say potahto". Tomayto/tomahto I understand -it's a prime example of the difference between standard US and Commonwealth English. But "potahto" I don't get. For the life of me I've never heard anyone - other than using poetic licence (e.g., in the song "A Fine Romance") - use that pronunciation. Is there a dialect or regional variety of English pronunciation for which "potahto" is commonly heard, or even the standard form of the word? (There's no mention of any standard pronunciation at potato.) Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha?  08:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never heard the word being pronounced that way in British English. I've always assumed it's just a comic invention for the sake of the song. --Richardrj talkemail 09:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think so too. I don't remember hearing it in "A Fine Romance", though. The pronunciation issue I remember from that song is Billie Holiday's failure to rhyme Ile de France with chance. +Angr 11:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict:) Ditto, my British family has always assumed that it's a forced rhyme from a lyricist's necessity, and that's how they answered me and my brothers when we asked this question as we grew up on both sides of the Atlantic having to learn all sorts of unexpected Anglo-American variations. However, Yanks say "ban-anna" and Brits say "ban-ahna". Another such forced rhyme is in "On the Street Where You Live" from My Fair Lady by Alan Jay Lerner (lyricist) and Frederick Loewe (musical composer): "People stop and stare, they don't bother me;/ In fact there's no place on earth that I would rather be," sung by Eliza Doolittle's aristocratic suitor, Freddy Eynsford-Hill. I can't think of a British, American or Commonwealth accent that rhymes "rather" with "bother", but whoever sings Freddy's parts or this song has to find a way of making them rhyme. —— Shakescene (talk) 11:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that rhyme of "bother" with "rather" has always amused me. The rhyme only works if you use General American for "bother" and then RP for "rather". +Angr 11:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Or if you're from Boston. L ANTZY T ALK 06:37, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe there are people from Boston for whom they rhyme, but in the traditional Boston accent they don't: vs. . +Angr 10:53, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) Ditto ditto on "potato". The banahna/bananna split isn't such a good example, it seems to me, as it's really a case of the same vowel used in its British and American forms, as opposed to ah/ay in tomato. (Though come to think of it, doesn't the song do almost the same thing with pyjamas/pajamas?) There are some other rhymes in My Fair Lady that only work in an American accent, notably in "You did it" where Higgins (of all people!) sings "Her English is too good, he said,/Which clearly indicates that she is foreign./Whereas others are instructed in their native language/English people aren't./" (Where "aren't" also has the forced pronunciation "ah-ren".) And, away from rhyming, there's Higgins's horribly ungrammatical line "I'd be equally as willing/for a dentist to be drilling/than to ever let a woman in my life." AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Foreign" and "aren'(t)" don't rhyme for most Americans either though, just those from the New York/Philadelphia area. +Angr 11:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong, but the rhymes in songs are a paralinguistic issue while their intonations are poetic or prosodic nature that lacks the conventional linguistic metrics. The linguistic ‘rhyme’ also seems to have an illusion on the question whether it is an ONSET or a RHYME (a word minus onset) or a WHOLE WORD. So the rests are in a sense self-explanatory. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC).
 * I do not understand what you are saying or how it is relevant. Could you repeat yourself using simpler words? Or provide links? 86.166.148.95 (talk) 22:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. For your concern, I just have to go back to the OP. What I can also add is to say that we do not usually here the word ‘potato’ with an unstressed nucleus as stated in RP but the second vowel as an enlonged sometimes, like /pɒtætoʊ/ or   /pɒteɪtoʊ/. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 01:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (I think by "onset", Mihkaw means "first syllable".) For what it's worth, it is possible to hear potato with some stress on the first syllable: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/taters . r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 02:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Rjanag is correct on this, and i have made the correction. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I've always assumed the "potahto" thing was just a joke. It's a jokey song, after all. Aside: Spitting Image did a great sketch of Ronald Reagen and, I think, Mikhail Gorbachev singing a version of this called "Let's blow the whole world up". --Dweller (talk) 11:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Word origin
Anyone have any idea where the word "kitchen" came from? Don't ask me why this suddenly popped into my head, strange things happen in my itty bitty brain in the wee, small hours of the morning! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.163.127.10 (talk) 10:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * See kitchen and http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kitchen. +Angr 11:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I know the meaning, I need the right word.
I'm looking to replace the word surrender with something more positive. I need a word that means to return to a safe place, a sanctuary of support, to go or return to a place of love and help. It needs to be a verb. Thank you in advace for your help.66.167.213.130 (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe "fall back". But can you give the context in which you intend to use the word? (i.e., the sentence, at least)? r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 15:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Retire", maybe. --Richardrj talkemail 15:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Or "withdraw". Nanonic (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Retreat"? The sentence you want to use the word in would help out a lot. Livewireo (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you want to recede in order to replenish? Bus stop (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Seek refuge, "turn to", "claim sanctuary", "make port", "extricate, "salvage", "yield", "forsake", "back down", "relinquish", "recant", "retire", consult Roget's Thesaurus? It may not be possible (in English) to convey all you want to in only one verb. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Regroup?--v/r - TP 18:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yield? DOR (HK) (talk) 09:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Style Guide
Hi, My name is Nathan Grimm from www.GuideToOnlineSchools.com. We recently published a detailed list of style guide resources for the MLA, APA, Chicago, and CSE styles: http://www.guidetoonlineschools.com/tips-and-tools/mla-apa-chicago-cse. It includes resources written by universities, general online guides, and free works cited generators. It is an excellent tool for any student because it links to over 70 of the best resources on the internet. I think the visitors to your website will find a link to this resource useful. Also, I would be happy to improve the guide based on your feedback. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Nathan Grimm Program Manager – Reach Network

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.118.100.98 (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If you wish to illicit a response, it must be through here. - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 19:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your link, which I have just added to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wavelength/About_English/Style_guides, to which you may refer for additional style guides. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * [I am revising my message. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)]

Preposition used for "street" or "square"?
I was having trouble finding any information on this. Which preposition should be used when talking about someone walking along a street? Are they said to be on the street, in the street or at the street? -- R ah rah  b o ahb  T 18:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say, "I am walking on (or along, up, down) Main Street." (Pennsylvania, USA) -- Coneslayer (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that Coneslayer's choices are most natural for streets in North American English, though I think down is really the most natural. As for squares, they aren't so common in North America.  We have very few of the Georgian squares that are common in London and other British cities.  I can think of just a few, such as Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.  In my city (Boston), we have what we call squares, most of which are really either intersections or commercial districts.  For square, I think I would say past if walking along the perimeter of a true square or through if walking through the middle. These answers may be different for British English.  Marco polo (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "In the street" is only used to say that someone is really in the middle of the street (i.e., amidst the traffic). "At the street" is almost never used, except for talking about intersections (for example, "The restaurant is at 3rd & Main"). r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * And even then only in US English. As a Brit, I would say: I walked down (or along or up) the high street and through (or across) the square. I live in/on Elm Street. I live in/on St. James' square. (The distinction in the latter two would be pretty subtle.) Therefore I would probably snub all three of your options :) - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 19:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * With some people in North America, if a street is aligned north-south, movement "up" the street tends to mean north and "down" tends to mean south. The same words can also imply uphill or downhill movement, and otherwise the choice between the two is arbitrary.  As for squares, I would use "walking past the square" only if I took the square to be like a park, not including the surrounding streets, and I was on one of those.  Normally it would be "through" or "across".  --Anonymous, 20:48 UTC, corrected 20:51, December 7, 2009.


 * Hm.I would also say "walked down (or along or up)" the street "went through (or across) the square". For me I speak American English of some sort. and without more context, 'in the square' today connotes being in a central reservation [like public open space surrounded by streets] or physically situated upon the streets of the intersection(s), 'on the square' an address or any location about the square and 'at the square' is probably the most vague. It could mean whatever 'in ...' or 'on ...' means, without context. 'Square' and 'street' may be treated differently because they are protypically different concepts; one is a long snaky thing and the other is often an ambiguous intersection type location. Where a street is named 'square' the prepositions that accompany it can be the ones used for 'street'.Synchronism (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Though of course you live at the crossroads, or at 42 Elm Street. A couple of other senses are "I'm on the streets" meaning I'm homeless, and "in the street" in the context of being stuck there: "I knocked and knocked on the door, but was left standing in the street" and "It fell out of my pocket, so now it's lying somewhere in the street". "I spent all day wandering in the streets". 213.122.53.19 (talk) 08:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * According to Love Songs Lyrics and Words to - On the Street Where You Live - by Andy Williams, "I have often walked down this street before".
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 20:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * By Andy Williams?! pshaw. -- LarryMac  | Talk  20:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Today, the "Language" reference desk seems to be becoming the "My Fair Lady" reference desk! r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 20:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * There's also "Our house, in the middle of our street" and the Cricket in Times Square.Synchronism (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer OP's second question, it depends on if they're walking on the sidewalk (pavement), balancing the curb (kerb) as though walking a tightrope, shunterring in the gutter or physically proceeding through the street. 'Walking along/down/up' the street could mean all of those and more.Synchronism (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * So what you are saying is that it depends on the nature of walk--i.e. it is of walking ‘on a street’ if a person walks over the street (which is possible in many countries, or in some occasions); it is of walking ‘at a street’ if a person uses a sidewalk or walks along side a street; and it is always ‘on a sidewalk’ unless a person uses a natural or temporary path for some reasons. And what you are saying about the ‘square’ is that it refers to an active place (for commercial or ceremonial gatherings); so if a person enters the boundary, then it is of walking ‘on a square’. But I think the use of ‘on’ for ‘at’ or vise versa is also easily understood without ambiguities, except as an idiom, for example, ‘I am on the street’ means ‘acquired disabilities’. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 00:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Acquired disabilities"? Secondly to clarify: If a street is named Square, like "Barkley Square Dr", one could say "I walked down Barkley Square." The reverse is not necessarily the same. "Walked at a street" is awkward just so you know, but "stopped at a street" is not, weird huh? "Walked down/up/along/(We'll add 'on') the street", as in "She walked on Oxford Street", does not necessarily imply being in the street where cars drive. "She walked in the street" does seem to imply this. "walked the streets for ..." is another idiom that doesn't imply going in the street. Idioms and frequent constructions aside, the noun and sometimes the verb, as you can see with 'walk', can affect which preposition to use.Synchronism (talk) 02:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Word help
A word that means 'without light' (like a night without stars) other than tenebrious. The fancier, the better. --24.187.98.157 (talk) 20:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "Dark". Not very fancy, though. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 20:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Caliginous? Atramental? Atramentous? Stygian? Deor (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all! Especially Deor! --24.187.98.157 (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Crepuscular is a nice word. Bus stop (talk) 21:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is, but it doesn't mean "without light" (like a night without stars). My choice is aphotic. +Angr 21:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * One I particularly like (because of its odd spelling) is chthonic. Grutness...wha?  00:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Another nice word that doesn't have the meaning the OP is looking for. +Angr 06:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * VERY interesting - according to the dictionary I use the most, Wiktionary has only one of two possible meanings for chthonic, the other of which is "shadowy or oppressively dark". Will you accept fuliginous? Grutness...wha?  00:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The word "Chthon" has kind of unpleasant associations for me, because it's the name of a Piers Anthony novel which I unwisely read all the way to the end... AnonMoos (talk) 08:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If you count hyphenated words as one word, may I suggest "bible-black"? The phrase used was actually "starless and bible-black". It's from Dylan Thomas's Under Milk Wood. If you get a chance to hear the recording of Richard Burton reading this work, do so. I guarantee this phrase will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * A black hole is "black-hole-black", not giving out any light but taking any that comes its way. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

pastime
When was the first usage of the word pastime (like that of games or sports)?--64.138.237.101 (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Google News lets you choose the year or range of years. See NLA Australian Newspapers - article display (Sunday 12 June 1808).  You can use your computer to search for the word pastime. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Google News doesn't go back far enough for a word like this. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 23:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The earliest citation in the OED is from c. 1489 (Caxton's Blanchardyn). (The word is a translation of French passe-temps, used in the same sense.) Deor (talk) 23:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Deor for the lookup in OED.--64.138.237.101 (talk) 23:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In case you're interested, the word is used for Pastime with Good Company (earliest manuscript c. 1513), which was a hit for composer Henry Tudor. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks.--64.138.237.101 (talk) 14:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

pleasure
What would be the earliest usage for the word: pleasure?--64.138.237.101 (talk) 23:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As a noun, c.1393 GOWER's Confessio Amantis. From the Anglo-Norman and Middle French plaisir, pleisir, plesir, dating back c. 1100. -Andrew c [talk] 01:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Andrew.--64.138.237.101 (talk) 12:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I see Confessio Amantis was begun circa 1386 and the completed work was published in 1390. It was done by an English poet and based on such works as Decameron of Boccaccio. Interesting facts. Thanks again.--64.138.237.101 (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I see also (based on Macaulay 1901).--64.138.237.101 (talk) 19:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)