Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 January 19

= January 19 =

A word to describe day-to-day documents
I am looking for a word, besides Accoutrements, Memorabilia or Paraphernalia, that describes ones day-to-day documents; the types of items one would put in a scrapbook i.e. ticket stubs, car bill-of-sale, grocery lists etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LottieBar (talk • contribs) 01:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you're after a word. You've just given the definition of the word you're seeking.  Accoutrements would nornally refer to clothing.  I would have chosen either Memorabilia or Paraphernalia, but don't know any others off hand, except maybe Miscellany.  --  JackofOz (talk) 01:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ephemera. DuncanHill (talk) 01:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Files? Defn: "a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a particular order for easy reference...
 * the contents of such a folder or box" and people sometimes just say, "my 'papers'". There's always the scrapbook. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The OP did say he/she was putting them into a scrapbook. How about the most obvious word - scraps?  --  JackofOz (talk) 02:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To be precise, they didn't say that they were putting them in a scrap book. They said that one would, not that they are presently doing so.  Dismas |(talk) 04:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Memento? Keepsake? Souvenir? -- 128.104.112.113 (talk) 23:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

'haymishe'
I'm looking for a definition of 'haymishe'- here's one use of it, various others on google books. Nadando (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * From context (and it sounding like dodgy German) "homely" seems likely. DuncanHill (talk) 02:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yiddish, meaning a warm, homey, friendly type of place. You'll find considerable spelling variation. - Nunh-huh 04:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconding Nunh-huh. - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Presumably it's the Yiddish cognate of standard German heimisch. —Tamfang (talk) 20:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Bicycle Kick: Improving Sentence
Various users have told me that this is a grammatically incorrect sentence:


 * However, the game in which the bicycle kick was allegedly invented is older than 1894 as Jorge Basadre, a famous Peruvian historian, found what is thus far the oldest record of a football match in the Lima-Callao area of Peru to have been organized by Englishmen of the Lima Cricket and Football Club for a game between Chalacos and Limeans played in August 7, 1892; meaning that by that time football had gained popular practice in Callao and Lima, which is a situation that is ahead of the introduction of football in Callao and the invention of the bicycle kick associated with it.

Could any of you please help me improve it? I do not see it as using bad grammar, but I would like "expert" opinion on the matter. Please, do not remove anything from the sentence, but feel free to move it around if you wish. Thank you.--&#91;&#124;!*//MarshalN20\\*!&#124;&#93; (talk) 05:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yikes! That is one long, run-on sentence, and I have no clue what you mean by the last part of it (so I'm leaving that out), but here goes:
 * However, the bicycle kick is older than the alleged birthyear of 1894. Historian Jorge Basadre has found a record of an August 7, 1892 football match between Lima and Callao in Peru, organized by Englishmen of the Lima Cricket and Football Club. This shows that the sport had already become popular in the area by then. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In the last sentence, I'd say "This evidence" rather than just "This". I always like to follow up a "this" with a concrete statement of exactly what it is that the "this" refers to.  Otherwise the reader may get confused. Just my 2p, --Richardrj talkemail 14:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. This is what I will use as the final sentence: However, the bicycle kick is older than the alleged birthyear of 1894. Historian Jorge Basadre has found a record of an August 7, 1892 football match between Lima and Callao in Peru, organized by Englishmen of the Lima Cricket and Football Club. This evidence shows that the sport had already become popular in the area by then, which symbolizes a situation that is ahead of the introduction of football in Callao by English sailors.--&#91;&#124;!*//MarshalN20\\*!&#124;&#93; (talk) 14:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * which symbolizes a situation that is ahead... is strange in English. What about: had already become popular in Callao before English sailors played it there?  If it was already known, the sailors didn't introduce it.  —Tamfang (talk) 19:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

One last question, do you think that the last sentence would require a reference? In the article, the statement that English sailors introduced football in Callao is already cited, but I will probably use it again. Would that be enough of a reference? I don't want it to be counted as "original research." Thanks again to the both of you.--&#91;&#124;!*//MarshalN20\\*!&#124;&#93; (talk) 14:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think that anything can be said to be "older than a year". Try "The bicycle kick predates the alleged birthyear..." DuncanHill (talk) 14:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, that does sound better. Thank you for your help.--&#91;&#124;!*//MarshalN20\\*!&#124;&#93; (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Minor point: I've never seen "birth year" spelled as one word, but they may do things differently over there. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It'sallBush'sfault. That black hole in his specially-reinforced, ultra-dense head just sucked out my linguistic skills. Help me, Saint Obama! Honestly, you'd think birthdate -> birthyear, but noooo.... Clarityfiend (talk) 20:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hahaha. Well, at least I sense this is a friendly atmosphere. I've never used the word "birthyear" before, so I really wouldn't know whether it was right or wrong.--&#91;&#124;!*//MarshalN20\\*!&#124;&#93; (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Translation from French to English
I would be grateful if a user could please translate the following French sentence into English. Ils ont des fragments de la Mischne, qu’ils n’entendent pas, et ils ne firent que me dire le titre de quelques chapitres. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 13:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "They have fragments of the Mishnah, which they do not hear, and all they did was tell me the title of some chapters." It could also mean "which they do not understand" (which makes more sense), but the meaning "understand" of entendre is marked as "dated" at Wiktionary. Is this an older text? —Angr 14:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say that the word "firent", in that past tense (passé simple) marks the text as older, or in the older style.


 * "They have Fragments of the Mishna, which they understand not, and they but but told me the Titles of certain Chapters" - if you want to replicate the antique style! Duomillia (talk) 14:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Duomillia (talk) 14:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Clearly "understand", rather than "hear", from the context and style. - Jmabel | Talk 15:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The simple past (such as firent) is still current in written French. In contemporary French, it is used to relate events that occurred long enough ago that they no longer bear any relation to the present. Entendre can still mean "understand" in some circumstances, though perhaps not in the straightforward way it's used here, which is more characteristic of texts up to about the early 20th century. Joeldl (talk) 17:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, the quote is from 1725, according to a Google search, and is in reference to the Jewish community in Kaifeng —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duomillia (talk • contribs) 03:10, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.Simonschaim (talk) 05:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

"Gratuity" pronunciation?
Well I pronounce it "Gr-tue-tee" but my law professor pronounces it "grae-chew-tee"! Is he correct? Is that the British way of saying it? -- Sanguine learner talk  18:24, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is pronounced with four syllables: gra-TOO-ih-tee or gra-TYOO-ih-tee, and comes from the French gratuité. --Thomprod (talk) 19:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's hard to conceive of an acceptable (or recognizable) pronunciation of gratuity of only three syllables, but if your law professor's pronunciation is more like "gruh-chew-ih-tee", then that's Thomprod's second pronunciation (with palatalization). It could also be that he's acting pretentious with such an odd pronunciation (e.g. if you mean the first syllable is pronunced like gray or graa , if it is in fact three syylables, etc.).--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 20:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I pronounce it "tip". :-) StuRat (talk) 21:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The normal British pronunciation is . If the pronunciation is with (as in grab), then it is not necessarily erroneous just because the dictionary gives a reduced vowel sound. Sometimes people will "unreduce" a vowel - think of the speaking style of some black preachers in the United States. I don't remember if Webster's Third New International Dictionary records pronunciations like these, but it may well. Joeldl (talk) 05:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry everyone; correction: I meant I pronounce it "Gr-tue-ih-tee" and my law professor pronounces it "grae-chew-ih-tee". -- Sanguine learner talk  18:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have little idea what your pronunciation respelling means (especially tue and grae). Can you tell us what system you're using, or use a common system like IPA? (And do you really stres the third syllable? That sounds really weird) Algebraist 18:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the OP meant they stress the third syllable verbally, but rather added the emphasis to distinguish it from what was originally written. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are many words in which Americans say too or loo while our cousins are more likely to say tyoo or lyoo. —Tamfang (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Only some Americans, as regards tu. I agree that it's nearly universal fur lu.Joeldl (talk) 11:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Reading
石路 is a Japonese surname and is pronunciated as Tsuwabuki, but 石 can be red as shaku, seki, koku or ishi, and 路 as ro, ji or michi. So, where do tsuwa and buki came from? Do 石 and 路 have a different reading if used in proper names? If so, where can I find a list of these pronunciations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.40.76 (talk) 18:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Japanese_name... -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, but this doesn't explain my question. I already known that every ideogram have different readings, but 石 is never listed as tsuwa, or 路 as buki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.40.76 (talk) 21:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that non-standard readings such as those are yamato-kotoba, native Japanese words from before Chinese influence. They might have been dialect words that have long gone out of fashion, but were kept in surnames from the region. I can see a linguistic link between michi and buki. It's not obvious, but there's a chance that they're related. Steewi (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 石路 is a common typo for 石蕗. 蕗, as opposed to 路, is read as fuki becoming -buki via compounding with the earlier initial tsuwa. tsuwa is perhaps from tsuya (艶) > tsuwa. 石 by itself is not read as tsuwa, but as a compound this is most likely the Japanese reading given to kanji from a Chinese source. Bendono (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * jp:ツワブキ says the plant is also found in China, but it seems to be known as shan ju or "mountain chrysanthemum" in Chinese according to a Google search, and has nothing to do with stone or rock. The article also mentions it is used in Japanese gardening (『日本庭園の石組みや木の根元などに好まれる』), perhaps that's why?--K.C. Tang (talk) 07:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Greek harvest
My understanding is that, in Greek, "harvester" as a noun is θεριστής theristis and "to harvest" as the infinitive form of a verb is θερίζειν therizein. How does one write "harvest" in Greek (I'd like both the original Greek and the transliteration) as an adjective? I do know that adjectives inflect in Greek; if you could give me the "basic" adjective form as well as inflected variants, that would be helpful. Thanks in advance. —Lowellian (reply) 23:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In both Ancient Greek and Modern Greek there is θέρος (théros; also meaning "summer", and related to θερμός, the root of our "thermo-" words). Careful: it's a neuter noun, so the harvest is τό θέρος (ancient) or το θέρος (modern). Ancient Greek also has καρπός (karpós; masculine) meaning "crop", and therefore "harvest" in the sense of the product of harvesting, as in "a harvest of one hundred bushels".
 * Can't help with the adjectives. Perhaps the genitive of the noun is used. It would help if you tell us the context of your question: Ancient or Modern Greek? The whole sentence you want to make? Perhaps then we could locate a specialist for you.
 * – ⊥ ¡ɐɔıʇǝo  N  oetica! T– 00:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Modern Greek, though I'd be happy to hear about Ancient Greek as well. The adjective form seems to me to be a pretty simple question that I'd imagine any native Greek speaker should be able to answer. —Lowellian (reply) 02:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * One doesn't often catch Noetica making a mistake, and it's not a big one, but still: in Ancient Greek, words that have an acute accent on the final syllable change it to grave before another stressed word, so "the harvest" is not τό θέρος but τὸ θέρος. —Angr 07:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Arggghhh... got me! I read the head of the entry in my Liddell & Scott – θέρος, τό – and I didn't make the adjustment when I turned the words around.
 * – ⊥ ¡ɐɔıʇǝo  N  oetica! T– 10:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The noun "harvest" in Modern Greek is θερισμός (therism'os). The adjective is θεριστικός (theristik'os), which is its singular masculin and nominative form. Feminin form θεριστική, neutral form θεριστικό. Pel thal (talk) 10:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! —Lowellian (reply) 01:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I see that "θερ-ισμός, ὁ, mowing, reaping" occurs in L&S as well, but not θεριστικός. That would be a natural extension from θερισμός, of course. θέρος is also right, it seems: but perhaps with more of the καρπός meaning than θερισμός has (L&S: "θέρος, εος, τό, (θέρω) summer, ... II. summerfruits, harvest, crop, ...").
 * – ⊥ ¡ɐɔıʇǝo  N  oetica! T– 02:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)