Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 January 26

= January 26 =

Its vs It's
Which is correct in the following snippet...?


 * the Display Collection, in it[s] most basic form

Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 04:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "The Display Collection in its most basic form" would be correct. Its here is the possessive form of it, and not a contraction of it is or it has. DuncanHill (talk) 04:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Is this the only case where an apostrophe is not used when indicating possession?  Dismas |(talk) 04:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think so. Of course, with pronouns we have "his" and "whose". DuncanHill (talk) 04:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * And "hers" and "theirs" (but not "ones").--Shantavira|feed me 10:01, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a convention in most English-speaking countries that words in street names, geographical names etc that would in other contexts take an apostrophe do not do so. Hence, the Kings Highway, instead of the usual "the king's highway".  And Pikes Peak (as distinct from Pike's breakfast).  --  JackofOz (talk) 05:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

please help [Why "congratulations" with an "s"?]
Why do we have to put "s" at the end of the word "congratulations"?Noualsee1 (talk) 08:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Because it's a plural noun along with good wishes, best wishes, compliments, felicitations, cheers, compliments, bouquets; and others: praise, commendation, applause, honor, acclaim, approval, admiration, are not? Julia Rossi (talk) 09:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * But why is it plural, in the case where the person is being congratulated for a single thing, as in "Congratulations for not farting at the dinner table, I didn't even know you had it in you" ? StuRat (talk) 18:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What's the number of things the person is being congratulated for have to do with it? Clearly, the custom is to offer several congratulations in one handy word, but if you like, you can also offer a single congratulation. (Of course, that may get you a reputation as a tightwad. Why so stingy, dude? It's not like you're working with a limited supply here.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 00:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Questions about language, I'm afraid, often have only historical answers ("it developed in this way, from this ... ") not explanatory or logical ones. Questions about idiom (which is what we have here) very often have no better answer than "because that's the way it is". --ColinFine (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There seems to be a class of these, including thanks, congratulations, commiserations, apologies, greetings. Using the noun in the plural is equivalent to using the verb is the first person singular present: "I [thank / congratulate / commiserate with / apologise to / greet] you."  It's a form of plurale tantum, and also a performative utterance; but those are just labels, not explanations. Maybe these forms are elliptical for "I offer you my Xs". (That would also include "best wishes", which is a common inscription on cards, but I've never heard spoken.  Is the corresponding verb form "I wish you well" or "I wish you the best"?)  That only defers the question: why can't I offer someone my "thank", or my "apology"?
 * Julia Rossi's "praise, commendation, applause, honor, acclaim, approval, admiration" cannot be used as standalone expression. One noun that is singular is welcome — you don't open the door to guests and say "Welcomes!". Perhaps this is "You are welcome" rather than "I welcome you" or "I offer you my welcome".  jnestorius(talk) 22:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't forget kudos, which many think to be in your plural class, but which is actually (for us pedants) in Julia's singular class. (Merriam-Webster, by the way, calls thanks a plural noun but welcome an interjection, which seems a weaselly sort of way to avoid the discussion we're having.) Deor (talk) 01:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There's nothing pedantic about regarding kudos as a singular word. It is singular, period.  Just like chaos.  --  JackofOz (talk) 05:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and it's pronounced with a siblant ess, Mars notwithstanding. --Milkbreath (talk) 12:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

German - English translation help
Can anyone help with an idiomatic translation of the following from Michael Haneke's screenplay of Der Siebente Kontinent: 'Ich glaube, ein Leben, wie wir es gelebt haben, vor Augen, sagt man leicht zu jeder Vorstellung von Ende ja.' Many thanks. Vleb (talk) 13:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

It is just a small attempt, but I hope you get an idea. Literary it means something along:
 * "I believe, a life (such) as we have lived before my (inner) eye, that one easily agrees with any image of an end."

Ideomatic
 * " As I believe, having seen a life such as ours, any image of an end is welcome."

--91.6.49.124 (talk) 16:16, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that (it's as dismal as I thought!) Vleb (talk) 18:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Euclidian"
As the title suggests, I would like to know how "Euclidian" is pronounced --212.120.247.244 (talk) 15:17, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "U-klid-ian" (pronounce "U" as a letter of the alphabet). --PS T 15:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And put the stress on the second syllable. --Richardrj talkemail 15:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And the proper spelling is "Euclidean". — Emil J. 15:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And putting it all together, you get yoo-KLIHD-ee-uhn. Deor (talk) 19:03, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * And in IPA /juːˈklɪd.i.ən/ (although I personally pronounce the last unstressed syllable more like [-ɛn]).-Andrew c [talk] 21:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

"Just" in Spanish
I am sure that in Spanish, you say "I have just finished..." as "acabo de..." so the infinitive is "To have just finished"/"Acabar de". Suppose you want to say that "I have just eaten". Would you say "como de" or "I have just finished eating" (how would you say this?: I don't know what happens to the gerund). The other question is why I have just finished does not become a past tense. I am a beginner in Spanish so I might ask some more questions here. Is that alright? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.143.15.142 (talk) 15:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "I have just eaten" can be translated as Acabo de comer. "I have just finished" is Acabo de acabar or Acabo de terminar. You're getting confused because acabar means "to finish" on its own, but acabar de +infinitive is used to indicate that the subject performed the action named by the infinitive recently. These two meanings of acabar are separate. Joeldl (talk) 16:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You can ask as many questions as you want. That's what the reference desk is for. :) --206.53.144.182 (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC) for El aprendelenguas
 * And it's not in the past tense because, for example Acabé de comer would mean "I finished eating", or Acababa de comer would mean "I was finishing eating". - Jmabel | Talk 01:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

(Mandarin) Chinese tones
Can anyone give me any tips on how to properly pronounce Mandarin tones? I know what they are and how they're usually described but I can't really be sure that I'm actually doing it right. I've even listened to audio of homophones which differ only in tone even this isn't much help as they still sound quite similar to me.

I've heard one of the tones (can't remember which now) being described as similar to the way you ask a question like "What?" and this was actually quite useful. So if anyone can provide similar descriptions fro the other tones it would be of great help to me. Thanks --212.120.247.244 (talk) 15:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The first step I would suggest is to listen to audio of the four tones pronounced in turn, for example: mā, má, mǎ, mà. Pronounce each syllable right after hearing it. When you think you've sort of got it right, do it again, but now pronounce each syllable before you hear it, and see how close you are. If you have a chance, have a native speaker help you, and tell you whether you're doing it right.
 * Also, your audio tape might have discrimination exercises. These are exercises asking you to identify the tones you hear. You should continue doing these until you're getting the answer right almost all the time.
 * The next step will be to learn to recognize and pronounce the various possible combinations of tones in two-syllable words, but first you need to make sure you're doing one syllable okay.
 * Have a look at Standard Mandarin, in particular the diagram showing the pitch changes of the four tones.
 * I would say the third tone sounds something like "Ma?" (as in, "You've got to be kidding me. You mean Ma did this?) The fourth tone sounds like a firm command: "Ma!" (if you can imagine ma is a verb in English). The second tone is like "Ma?" (meaning "Hello? Anybody home?" or "Ma, is that you?"). I'm not sure I can think of anything for the first tone. Joeldl (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are four basic tones. Let's use "ma" as an example. In order, the tones would be written, in Pinyin, mā má mǎ mà. The the tone of the "a" in the first one is pronounced similar to when a doctor uses a popsicle stick and says, "Say 'ahh!' Open wide!". The tone of the second one is similar to "what?" or "huh?". The tone of the third one is low and quiet-ish, similar to "uhh...". The fourth tone contains extra emphasis, similar to "what?!?!" or "yes!". These are just the tones, they are often spoken with similar volume. Remember that the tone must be kept the same as usual for each character, but there are exceptions. For example, the tone of the second character is usually dropped if the same character is spoken twice. There's also a fifth "tone", except it doesn't have a tone, similar to saying "guh" or "ugh" quietly and without emphasis of any sort. Hope this helps. Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 19:26, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Intern
Hi there, Which one is appropriate? I'm an intern student (spring semester) and intends to do a course while doing my internship. So, Aside above statements what can be the appropriate statement? Thank you--202.168.229.245 (talk) 16:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am currently enrolled in the final year of the business administration course at the ABC and I will graduate in April 2009.
 * I am currently an intern of the business administration department at the ABC University and I will graduate in April 2009.

P.S Or If write I am an intern student and currently enrolled in the final semester of the business administration course at the ABC University and I will graduate in April 2009. Is that right?


 * They all seem grammatically correct, to me, but just say different things. The last one says that you are both an intern and student, so, if that's what you want to get across, I'd go with that.  If not, each of the earlier two sentences, in turn, can be used, as well. StuRat (talk) 18:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Is your internship in the Bus. Admin. department, or are you working elsewhere (such as an outside employer) as part of your Bus. Admin. studies? To this American (not that you're writing to an American), "intern of the department" sounds a bit off.  If your internship has you working in the department, I'd say something like "I'm currently an intern in the business administration department at ABC University, and I will graduate in April."  If you're working elsewhere, perhaps "I'm currently on an internship with XYZ Corporation as part of my business administration studies; I will graduate from ABC University in April."   --- OtherDave (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've found a job advertisement here which says, the employer is looking for Internship/ Recent Fresh Graduate in BBA from any recognized university. Being an intern I want to apply there. To notify the employer I needed appropriate statement for my cover letter. So, which one I should choose? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.168.229.245 (talk) 11:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification. I'm in the States and don't know how these things are understood in Bangladesh.  With that in mind, here's how I read the pre-requesite:
 * "We are looking for someone who is looking for an internship, or who is a very recent graduate in BBA (is that "basic business administration?"), who can think out of the box, blah blah blah." So highlight whichever applies to you.  A strong internship will trump a lackadaisical education, and vice-versa.  If you're doing both, you're an even better candidate.
 * In this country, the employer is mainly interested in what you can do for the company, and how they can tell.  That means while the internship will benefit you, that benefit is of less interest to the employer -- they've got work, and want to know if you can do it.  If that's true in Bangladesh as well, in your cover letter play up how your internship, your studies, or both show that you can work under pressure, communicate well, etc.  To me the job description seem vague ("all activities regarding promotion").  Still, you should emphasize anything you've done and especially any results you've accomplished.
 * "For the XYZ Company, I conducted marketing studies and monitored the promotion budget so our campaign took place on time and within cost."


 * Good luck with the internship. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks OtherDave. BBA means Bachelor of Business Administration.--202.168.229.245 (talk) 13:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * With that advertisement in mind, I'd go with the third sentence you proposed. You might also want to emphasize your fluency in English.  The ad was full of English mistakes, so it's clear they need somebody who is more fluent than them. StuRat (talk) 14:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Based on the advertisement, I have added the following paragraph in cover letter : ''I understand from your advertisement that your company needs young and dynamic people for working in the management trainee position. However, I have gone through a nine days training course of LFE (Live-in-field-experience) in Comilla, where I was given responsibility to led a group and successfully completed the course.'' All other paragraphs seem fine to me except this one. Will it be appropriate to add this paragraph in letter? Or is it too short?--202.168.229.245 (talk) 19:57, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It does seem too short, why not add some details on the LFE experience ? It also contains several errors.  Here's a corrected version, with changes in bold:

''I understand from your advertisement that your company needs young and dynamic people for the management trainee position. I have successfully completed a nine day training course in LFE (Live-in-Field-Experience) in Comilla, where I was given responsibility to lead a group... ''(add more here)


 * Also note, I would have said "given the responsibility", but that's US English, while the "the" may be omitted in British English, which is likely what you want to use in Bangladesh. StuRat (talk) 22:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The esteemed StuRat's comments are good. I would add only that while I don't know how self-promotion sounds to people in Bangladesh, writing here in the States, I'd trumpet my accomplishments more.  Is the LFE course the strongest card you can play?  Then emphasize it:  "I successfully completed a nine-day Live-in-Field-Experience course in Comilla, where I lead a group that (accomplished whatever)."
 * Note the wording: "I led" (active and brief), not "I was given responsibility to lead" (passive and wordier). Also: "I led the group, and we did X."  As Thomas F. Gilbert said, behavior you take with you; accomplishment you leave behind.  The employer wants to hear about both, but when pressed, prefers accomplishment.  Check the other cards in your hand, and choose the ones that seem to relate to the employer's interest.  --- OtherDave (talk) 00:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion. "I led" also removes the need to choose between US English and British English.  Now if they can just avoid discussing their favorite "football" team during the interview... :-) StuRat (talk) 03:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Style guide for French spacing
I'm looking for an authoritative style guide that determined whether or not there should be a space before a question mark. While I do have one from Nova Scotia Department of Education, I'd like to know if there's some other rule that states that there's supposed to be a space before the punctuation like question marks.

As an example of what I'm looking for, a lesson on answers.com states that there should be a space.

I know there's something called greviste, which could be something I'm looking for. A quick google search didn't produce results yet, but it could be a commercially sold book. --Sigma 7 (talk) 16:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but I seem to recall that there's a space before question marks and exclamation marks. I know that spacing before punctuation marks can differ between French and English. Also, European sources are not reliable for Canadian punctuation conventions. (I have the vague recollection that colons may be treated differently.)
 * A good style guide for this kind of thing is Le français au bureau, which is published by the Quebec government. It is sold in practically every French-language bookstore in Quebec, so I imagine it can be found reasonably easily throughout Canada. Unfortunately, I don't have it available to me at the moment.
 * You may be referring to Le Bon Usage by Grevisse. It covers a variety of usage issues, but I don't remember whether typographical conventions are among them. Overall, it's very good, but like most European reference works, its coverage of areas of disagreement between Canadian and European French is poor. Joeldl (talk) 16:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * See the following.
 * Wikipédia:Conventions de style - Wikipédia
 * Wikipédia:Conventions typographiques - Wikipédia
 * http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Conventions_typographiques#Espaces
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 17:14, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Despite its title, the article Double spaced sentences has information relevant to your request.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Double spaced sentences provides some good relevant information. My old Bon usage (Grevisse) from 1961 uses a normal "space of the line" before its own punctuation (except before commas, ellipses, full stops, and a few others). Eleven dense pages are devoted to punctuation, but spacing is not mentioned. Joeldl, Adam Bishop, and I have recently chatted about Grevisse: the latest edition looks wonderful, but costs an arm and a leg.
 * Presumably to accommodate French and other European Wikipedia, our software substitutes a hard space (&amp;nbsp;) for a normal space after an opening guillemet («), or before a closing guillemet (»), colon, semicolon , exclamation mark (!), or question mark (?) – but not before a comma or a full stop (.). These are the cases I have investigated, anyway. The hard space prevents line breaks like this:
 * "A long line automatically gets broken to a new line, see ? But a hard space stops an unwanted break like that one."
 * WP:MOS currently includes these provisions for material in quotation (my underlining for emphasis):
 * Allowable changes
 * Though the requirement for minimal change is strict, a few merely typographical elements of the quoted text should normally be altered without comment, to conform to English Wikipedia conventions. Such a practice is universal, in all publishing. Such alterations include these:
 * Styling of dashes (use the style chosen for the article: unspaced em dash or spaced en dash; see Dashes, below).
 * Styling of apostrophes and quotes (they should all be straight, not curly; see Quotation marks, below); such typographical elements as guillemets (« », in quoted French, Portuguese, and other foreign-language material) should be altered to their English-language equivalents (guillemets become standard straight quote marks, for example).
 * Spaces before periods, colons, semicolons, and the like should be removed, since they are merely typographical and are alien to the conventions in use throughout English Wikipedia, and English-language publishing in general.
 * Some text styling (of course the typeface will be automatically made the same as the article's default typeface; but preserve bold, underlining, and italics; see Italics, above).
 * [...]
 * The provision for removing spaces before semicolons and the like is justified. Just one scenario: if an article strains to preserve the original spacing used in quoted sources, two foreign-language sources using different conventions might be quoted near each other (perhaps from the same text, where only snippets of an original are available, from different sources). The result is an ugly and unnecessary mess. All publishers make their punctuation style regular, and we should do the same. Also, if a third party cites our work ineptly and uses the surface text rather than the underlying code, hard spaces will be lost. The resulting breaks look good for no one!
 * – ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝo N  oetica! T– 23:14, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information. I think I have enough information to put in French/Lessons/Alphabet without too much problem.  Because the distinction was between Canadian and International French (as I found from one of the links in double spaced sentences), I included both and mentioned that the spacing rules vary depending on location and context.  I'm not sure if it carries to written French, but I suspect that not to be too much of an issue since the local writing style will probably dominate.  --Sigma 7 (talk) 17:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

_______ or bust?
When you see the old stereotypical hitchhiker carrying a big piece of cardboard that says "Chicago or bust" (or any other location), what does the "or bust" actually mean? It's obviously some version of "I really really want to go to Chicago", but does it have a specific meaning and how did it originate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.26.212.72 (talk) 16:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's the plain word "bust", meaning "burst", and figuratively, "destroy". "X or Bust!" is a slogan, like "Do or Die!": "I'll get to Chicago, or I'll explode from the effort of trying to get there." In my mind the practice, in America, anyway, comes from the days of the wagon train in the Wild West, with "California or Bust!", "Pike's Peak or Bust!" on the sail of the prairie schooner. The Oxford English Dictionary is not much help, making no reference to our phrasing "X or Bust!". Their earliest quotation for "bust" (which the OED calls "colloq. and U.S.") is from Lewis and Clark where somebody "busted his rifle", with many more spread over the years up till 1963. This at least shows that the word was in use at the time. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Funny, that's not how I interpreted it. I assumed bust meant "broke, bankrupt." In other words, I'd like to get to Chicago, or as far as I can until I run out of money. Or something like that.Joeldl (talk) 17:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd always assumed the expression "California or bust" originated at the time of the Midwestern Dust Bowl, but seemingly not. There was a silent film made in 1927 with that title. If it did originate in the 19th century, though, I wonder how it entered popular parlance? As to the meaning, I've always interpreted "bust" as "burst from the effort" rather than "broke." Pavel (talk) 18:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd have bet my last dollar that it meant to continue until out of money. The reasoning being, that, once out of money, if unwilling to take charity, one would need to stop and get a job for food and the other necessities, possibly with the goal of continuing on to their destination later. StuRat (talk) 18:18, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd always interpreted it as X or as close as I can get until my wagon is "busted" (broken) on this awful, rough trail. Rmhermen (talk) 18:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * From what I've been able to find, the "or bust" idiom was first used during the Pike's Peak Gold Rush, circa 1858. The specific phrase "Pike's Peak or bust" is mentioned in that Gold Rush article as well as our article on Pike's Peak, but there's no mention of the actual meaning or deeper etymology.  --LarryMac  | Talk  18:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Data point: The first quotation the OED shows for the sense "go bankrupt" is from 1829. A quotation in that sense from 1880 brings up the boom/bust dichotomy: "After the fate of the town, be it to ‘boom’ or ‘bust’, has been decided." It just might be that "bust" we're seeing, after all, although I doubt the Comanches were hiring round-eyes in those days. --Milkbreath (talk) 18:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This book would seem to suggest that it has something to do with getting to your destination as long as your wagon doesn't break down. Joeldl (talk) 18:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * All the senses of "bust" mean "ruin", essentially, so I imagine each pioneer who painted that slogan must have had his own idea of the sort of ruin he faced. And ruin is ruin, be it physical or financial. If we look at the syntax of a representative slogan, "California or Bust", it presents two incompatible outcomes, California, an actual geographical destination, and "bust", which is hard to reconcile with English grammar or idiom as I understand it with my modern-day mind. It is almost certain that the verb "to bust" came first, being as it is a corruption of "burst". "Bust" stems from frontier gibberish, apparently, and it trod the same sorts of lonely paths through the backwoods of the language that its fathers trod through the Western wilderness, taking work as a noun, participle, or adjective as the occasion demanded. So I think that our "bust" here is a noun meaning "ruin" ("bustedness"), being parallel with the noun designating the destination in the slogan. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I know this is sort of a tangent, but is anyone else familiar with this phrase only because of the opening credits of Perfect Strangers? Adam Bishop (talk) 08:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've seen it on WW2 American tanks, where it has been 'Berlin Or Bust,' with no notion of bankruptcy implied here.--KageTora (talk) 08:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Not Perfect Strangers for me but I want to say it was Looney Tunes... Dismas |(talk) 09:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There's also the 1969 film Monte Carlo or Bust. Malcolm XIV (talk) 09:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

chinese symbol
Hi, I'm looking for the Chinese pictogram which means "courage". I've found two of them, which is correct?


 * 
 * 

Thanks! --83.38.102.204 (talk) 18:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd have to say that the second one is a bit innacurate. "英" is pronounced "yīng", and can have various meanings. "yīng yǔ" or "yīng wén" means "English language", while "yīng hàn" or "ying xióng" (not sure which one) means "hero". ~ A H  1 (TCU) 19:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The second one is the mirror writing of 英 written with brush. Oda Mari (talk) 04:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the usual Mandarin word for "courage" is yǒngqì, which takes two characters to write (simplified 勇气 or traditional 勇氣). Yǒng 勇 by itself means "brave" and qì 气/氣 by itself means "air", so you really need to have both to mean "courage". Now the classical Chinese word for "courage" is probably monosyllabic and so only requires one character to write, though I have no idea what it is. (Furthermore, classical Chinese is as different as the modern Chinese languages of Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. as Latin is from the modern Romance languages of French, Italian, etc., so if you're looking for a single character to express a modern Chinese word for "courage" you're probably out of luck.Strad (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "勇" by itself can mean courage. In the Chinese expression "有勇無謀" (literally "has courage but no calculation", meaning foolhardy) "勇" has the meaning of courage or bravery. In the OP wants to convey "courage" using just a single Chinese character, between "勇" and "英", the first is a much better choice. In modern Chinese, "英" is often used in nouns to refer to things British/English ("英國" - England/Britain; "英語" - English language; "英里" - mile (literally "English li (mile)"). (And as Oda Mari pointed out, the character "英" in the second link is inverted left to right.) --173.49.9.18 (talk) 03:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're about to get a tattoo in a language you don't understand, a quick visit to http://hanzismatter.com might talk you out of this regrettable decision. rspεεr (talk) 09:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good advice. --173.49.9.18 (talk) 03:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Honoured/Honorary citizen (French)
Would I be right in thinking that 'citoyen d'honneur' translates better as honoured citizen than honorary citizen, in the context of a naturalised French national living in France? (See the bottom of this article for the story. Thanks. 4u1e (talk) 18:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in that particular sentence, "honoured citizen" is the best translation. Basically, the "citoyens d'honneur" is a list of residents of the town who have accomplished great things. --Xuxl (talk) 18:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Have corrected the translation in the article. 4u1e (talk) 13:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Nin-er
I'm curious if anyone knows why the digit 9 is sometimes pronounced niner especially in the context of the NATO phonetic alphabet. I don't really see anything else intentionally mispronounced in the phonetic alphabet... or is "niner" just another pronunciation that has been phased out of public use but has stuck with the phonetic alphabet or something like that? Nothing else seems to rhyme with "nine", so I'm not sure why they'd change it like that. Thanks. Anythingapplied (talk) 20:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Correction: It looks like there are a few others that are mispronounced. From NATO phonetic alphabet:
 * "The unusual pronunciation of certain numbers was designed to reduce confusion, eg, "Fife" instead of "Five" to avoid confusion with "Fire".

I assume that niner is just along theses same lines. That is probably my answer. Anythingapplied (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The numeral nine is pronounced "niner" to more easily differentiate it from five. Radio transmissions at some frequencies are subject to all kinds of interference, fading and noise.  Under poor conditions, vowels are more easily heard and understood than consonants, so it would be easy to mis-hear "nine" as "five" and vice versa.  "Niner" is easier to distinguish than "nine" under poor reception conditions. --Thomprod (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As a former radio operator, I can confirm that the previous reply is bang on. However, I just looked at that link for the NATO Phonetic Alphabet, and I have an issue with it. I never heard Quebec pronounced Keh-bek on the air. The whole point is that it represents the letter Q, so the correct French-Canadian pronunciation (Québec) is not appropriate for the purpose - we already have Kilo for K. Pavel (talk) 23:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The story I've heard, but can't corroborate, is that this is supposed to be international, and you want to avoid any possibility that mishearing something could cause a serious problem. In german, "nein" (meaning "no"), is pronounced almost like the english "nine".  Any mis-understanding concerning the word "no" in an emergency could be rather counter-productiveBunthorne (talk) 04:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As a licensed pilot, I can corroborate that. By international agreement, English is the universal language of air traffic control. Pilots worldwide are expected to have a minimum working knowledge of English aviation terminology. So yes, a German pilot who heard "nine" might instinctively take it as "nein" (no), or say one when he means the other. So "niner" avoids that. (There are some funny stories associated with this topic, but this isn't the place for them.) Unimaginative Username (talk) 08:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In English English (and presumably other non-rhotic dialects), the "r" is silent. Using "niner" then simply serves to force the speaker to sound the second "n". That letter on "nine", on the other hand, can be swallowed such that it's almost not there (more a whispered afterthought. Bazza (talk) 13:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for all great answers. I figured it'd be to prevent confusion over the air waves, but it is funny to hear about the german confusion and the confusion with five. Thanks! Anythingapplied (talk) 20:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)