Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 18

= July 18 =

Phnom Penh
It seems that the first word here is pronounced both with or without the initial 'ph'. Which is, for lack of a better word, the right way to pronounce it? Why is there a divergence in pronunciation? ÷seresin 01:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Phnom Penh, the native pronunciation is . Algebraist 01:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Our articles tend not to show the English pronunciations of international names. Merriam-Webster shows pronunciations with and without initial /p/. Perhaps the silent "p" is due to analogy with words like "pneumatic" where "p" before "n" is not pronounced. --Cam (talk) 05:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Da kine
How do you pronounce Da kine? Shouldn't there be a prounouncation on the page?174.3.103.39 (talk) 05:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a little bit of discussion about it on the talk page, and somebody else already requested an IPA transcription. My IPA is terrible, but I can tell you that "da" is pronounced like "the" but with a /d/ instead of /th/. "kine" is pronounced just like "kind", but with a silent "d". Indeterminate (talk) 07:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So like "decline" without the L? Vimescarrot (talk) 11:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That depends how you pronounce "decline". I would pronounce "decline" as (and the OED agrees), while the above pronunciation for "da kine" seems to be, with a mid central vowel where "decline" has a Near-close near-front unrounded vowel. Algebraist 14:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Algebraist, that looks correct. Indeterminate (talk) 03:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

meaning
allegedly what it mean ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vikashajare85 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * allegedly. Algebraist 06:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also what and it. —Tamfang (talk) 22:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey, folks, I am back!
Sorry, this is not a question. I just wanted to inform all of you that I have survived the usually terminal illness of lack-of-internet, and that I am back and in full strength! That's all. Sorry.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey! Good to see you! --TammyMoet (talk) 08:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, we can't give medical advice. If you think the lack of internet caused you to become ill, you should see a doctor. Also hi! ;-) Vimescarrot (talk) 11:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad case of line flu, eh? Welcome back. Tonywalton Talk 18:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Haha! Cheers, folks! I'm in Korea and getting internet was a little hassle, but here we all are again, after all. Sorry, this is not a message board so I will stop here, and thanks for the welcomes! See you all later when my specialist subjects turn up! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Usually terminal, but sometimes a motherboard illness instead. :-)209.244.187.155 (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good to see you've gone east and not 'gone west' Richard Avery (talk) 14:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't this be moved to the Computer desk? Bus stop (talk) 14:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Caesar and the elephant
Julius Caesar, wanting to celebrate one of his victories against the Carthaginians, created a new coin depicting an elephant. Some historians/linguists think that this particular choice was justified by the fact that in some alleged Mauretanian language the name of the elephant was translated as caesar. Is this true? In which language does elephant translates into caesar? --151.51.11.230 (talk) 07:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That etymology for Caesar is reported in the Historia Augusta, with the "Moorish" word being rendered as caesai. See Gaius Iulius Caesar (name) and the links in the references there. I don't think anyone really knows whether "lingua Maurorum" refers to Punic or some other North African tongue. Deor (talk) 16:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Translation into Latin
How would one translate "Defender of Christendom" into Latin? I assume "Defender" is Defensor? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Defensor Christianitatis using basic terminology. However, "Christendom" in English specifically refers to the community of Christians / Christian societies collectively as a whole, and I'm not sure there's a standard term for that in Latin. AnonMoos (talk) 21:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Although not strictly relevant to the question, Defensor Fidei is a title/epithet that has seen a good deal of usage in this regard. Deor (talk) 00:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Damn, my comment above didn't generate an edit conflict with Adam Bishop's below. I hate it when that happens. Deor (talk) 00:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fidei defensor is the usual form. Algebraist 00:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You could also use just "Christians" (christiani, so christianorum in this case), or, my favourite, the one word that sums up the phrase "those who worship Christ" (christicolae, or in this case christicolarum). But "Defensor Christianitatis" is a real medieval title, granted by various Popes to various kings. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I like christicola as well—especially if you happen to be lurking about seeking someone. Deor (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I specifically didn't want to use Fidei. Defensor christianorum sounds good.  Thank you.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

translation !!
can someone please translate this .... its a french proverb and makes no sense what so ever when translated litterally

Qui vole un oeuf, vole un boeuf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sushil shenoy (talk • contribs) 17:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * L'Internaute says, basically, "A small crime starts one on the road to committing larger ones". Comments on that entry seem to disagree, with some contributors of the opinion that it means more "It doesn't matter what you steal; a thief's a thief". Both these interpretations seem to make sense. Tonywalton Talk 18:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This sounds like, "In for a penny, in for a pound." Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * An English proverb I have sometimes heard, with a similar meaning, is "as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb". 128.148.38.26 (talk) 21:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A more literal translation is "he who steals an egg, steals a cow." Since it's a proverb, of course, the literal translation only helps lead to the interpretations given above.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  18:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest that the equivalent saying in English would be "Once a thief, always a thief." --Anonymous, 00:17 UTC, July 19, 2009.
 * Based on what? --jpgordon:==( o ) 21:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The verb vole, I assume is an older use of vouler - to want. So the literal translation is "He who wants an egg, also wants a [whole] cow." The intent of the sentence is probably best translated as "Give them an inch and they'll take a whole yard," but all of the above versions also make sense. It implies that a smaller thing is equivalent to a big thing, because it's the wanting/stealing/whatever that counts, not the object. Steewi (talk) 00:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems the literal translation is the best. My online translation thing gave me: "Who flies an egg, flies a beef." That's good enough for me. Bus stop (talk) 21:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, "Who steals an egg, steals an ox." Bus stop (talk) 21:37, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Flies" is based on a completely different (and in this context, wrong) meaning of the French verb voler. The translation program doesn't seem to be of too great quality if it can't pick up clues from transitive vs. intransitive uses of verbs... AnonMoos (talk) 03:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In addition to that, Steewi's suggestion can't be right, because "to want" is "vouloir", which is a completely different verb from "voler", no matter how far back in French you go, even to the original Latin. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You should have tried Babelfish; it yields "He that will steal an egg will steal an ox". Nyttend (talk) 04:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Codeswitching
What are some of the arguments for and against codeswitching.i mean why do some linguists do not accept codeswitching as normal,preferrable or recommended.And why do some linguists favour it. Please provde specific arguments(preferrably refernced)

I have read Codeswitching article on wikipedia and similar general introductory articles on the web but specific reasons and arguments are not listed anywhere.(so please dont simply ask me to read the codeswitching articles) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.186.29.174 (talk) 22:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Linguists don't accept or reject codeswitching as normal, preferable, or recommended; they simply describe it the way it happens. +Angr 01:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, ideally and officially. In practice, most of the linguists I've met had a personal opinion - most of them thought codeswitching was neat, and bilinguals often describe it as feeling fun, or natural, or liberating compared to strictly speaking monolingually. However, it can be perceived by monolinguals as rude, elitist, or alienating. And it can certainly be used as a tool for excluding people from the conversation. *shrug* If you want references, though, try searching Google Scholar or something. Indeterminate (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)