Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 31

= July 31 =

Jua de vive - in need of a phrase dictionary
Anyone care to explain what "jua de vive" means in English? There isn't anything at Wiktionary or dictionary.com And I don't know of any reliable phrase dictionaries... So, if you know of one that I could use in the future, please point that out too. Dismas |(talk) 00:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The instances that turn up in a Google search all appear to be misspellings of joie de vivre. Where did you see it? Deor (talk) 00:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was going off my own misspelling and Google didn't correct me. Apparently enough people have misspelled it the same way that I did since Google had several results.  I did indeed mean joie de vivre.  I've only ever heard the phrase and have never (in recent memory) seen it written, so that's the reason for the misspelling on my part.  Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 00:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A term "screw you"
What does the term "screw you" means. Is screw you any different from "f*3 you"? i have try to say this at my graduation, when I said this about sombody, a girl tell me "stop it" Scrw you on google image is just showing 3 finger.--69.228.145.50 (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * wiktionary:screw you Nil Einne (talk) 01:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Screw you is a slightly less offensive way of saying fuck you. It's equally offensive to the person you say it to, but doesn't involve a swear word, so it's less offensive to hear it said. Steewi (talk) 02:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless, it is used in the much less likely case of "Be careful, or he'll screw you." Here, the meaning is to cheat or otherwise disadvantage the one being screwed. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Fuck" could be used instead of "screw" in the "be careful or he'll screw you" example, if the context was understood by both parties speaking. In that case, it would not only be more offensive, but would imply a greater severity of cheating or taking advantage.  Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 15:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They're really not any different, but you can get away with "screw" because it has other meanings, and even suggests being literally "screwed" by a metaphorical large screw and screwdriver; hence the twist-of-the-wrist gesture that carries the same meaning. The F word has only one meaning, be it literal or metaphorical. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, for the most unambiguous metaphorical usage, substitute "rape" and that should make it crystal clear. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

After an incident where a madman raped a female laundry worker and fled, one newspaper used the headline 'Nut screws washer and bolts!' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.68.48 (talk) 01:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow! That's extraordinary. I wish I'd said that. :) Then there's the time-honored fake headline, "Rapist attacks woman but she beats him off." I actually saw a headline similar to that in USAToday.com or someplace like that recently. I'm guessing the writer was trying to slip that old joke past the proofreader. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 06:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Should this not be obvious, "Nut screws washer and bolts" is an old joke, not an actual headline. =) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Except maybe in a satirical newspaper, as with the "beats him off", which I first saw in a National Lampoon newspaper satire. The net-washer joke could be from the Onion or it could go back a lot farther. "There are no new jokes." -- Henny Youngman. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There are endless references to that joke in Google, and of course none of them indicates where it came from. Snopes has not investigated it yet, so this is all we know. What that joke actually represents is the great diversity of English, with all the words except "and" having at least two meanings, including switching from noun to verb and vice versa. It's somewhat akin to the Panda "eats shoots and leaves" joke, except that's also about usage of the comma. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Use of 'may' in Indian official English
The Indian official English is replete with the modal auxiliary may. An official who would like to go on leave would write to his superior: "I may kindly be granted leave on 1st August...". I am not sure if this is asking permission. It looks more like a humble impersonal suggestion. "May kindly be approved", "necessary action may be taken" etc. are very frequent. The higher official in turn would approve the action/or grant leave thus: "May be done". Is this use of may purely Indian invention or an obsolete use surviving the backwoods? Incidentally, you don't use may to ask permission in except in questions like "May I come in?", do you? --Clericalmonk (talk) 02:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, from an American English perspective, that use of "may" is definitely nonstandard but still easily understandable. You're right, we only ask permission using questions, so that permission sense of "may" is only really seen in humble questions or impersonal statements granting permission. There's still an archaic use I can think of, where blessings often take the form "May such-and-such happen."... but I don't know if that's where this use came from.
 * You might also be interested in relexification. I don't think Indian English is a creole, but it shares many characteristics. I'm curious whether any Indian languages have sentences of this form, and whether the permission "may" is more common in the north or south. It's pretty common for the idiosyncrasies or quirks of regional Englishes to be more-or-less direct translations from the native language, so maybe it's a combination of an English word and Hindi or Punjabi syntax. Just a thought... I'm not an expert. :) Indeterminate (talk) 11:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The archaic use of may you suggested is the subjunctive, isn't it? The use in question could be an extension of that use. Regarding the regional aspect, I can't say anything for sure except that I am from south Indian where the influence of north Indian languages is minimal.--Clericalmonk (talk) 01:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

who can tell me "kainc" how to pronounce,ok ?
who can tell me how to pronounce"kainc",ok ? ThanQ！ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kainc (talk • contribs) 03:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What language is it? +Angr 06:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am aware that "Kainc" is an alternate spelling of the Germanic surname "Kainz". Both are derivates of the first name Konrad.  It is pronounced like the beans manufacturer Heinz with a "K" at the beginning.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that the 'c' at the end (or 'z' for the variant Kainz) would be pronounced like a 'ts'. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Plural for a proper noun in the Alfred Stieglitz article
Regarding this edit to the Alfred Stieglitz article, is the form "Stieglitzes" correct in the phrase "Over the next fifteen years the Stieglitzes had five more children"? If I can't get an answer I am also happy for someone to reconstruct the sentence to avoid the plural thing (if that is what it is). Cheers, --Commander Keane (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's okay that way, but "the Stieglitz family" is an easy way to avoid the problem. +Angr 06:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why avoid the problem? Confront it head on.  Surnames are pluralised exactly like any other nouns.  See English plural.  "Stieglitzes" is perfectly correct, and completely appropriate.  --  JackofOz (talk) 14:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Jack. We don't say "keeping up with the Jones family," after all. And in this case, the reference is clearly to Papa and Mama Stieglitz, not the whole family. Deor (talk) 14:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Big fish
If I ever become a big fish in a big pond, will I be a target of someone with bigger fish to fry? Neon Merlin  06:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course. Consider the whale.83.100.250.79 (talk) 06:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought the whale was a mammal?--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 14:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, a whale shark then. The bigger you are, the likelier you are to be a target. That's why there are so few terrorist attacks in Luxembourg, for example. Or why vegetarians picket McDonald's rather than White Castle. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not always the case, though. It can be equally argued that as being the "bigger fish," you'll have about 50% chance of being a target and a 50% chance of being feared and/or respected. Consider the United States, they barely have gotten any terrorist attacks (and the few they have had made it go on a Middle East rampage). However, if there is "someone" seeking to fry "bigger fish," then you most certainly would be a target of that someone.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 17:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * When you say "about 50%", how much of a range do you mean? The Campaign Against Bogus Precision wants to know. —Tamfang (talk) 06:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

You could get battered to death...hotclaws 01:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

No. Let's look at this sentence semantically. If they already have bigger fish to fry, why would they burden their stock by getting more fish, which are not as big as the ones they already have? Makes no sense. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Naming Conventions
I have been changing the existing names of area towns in the article Pattaya to conform to the Wikipedia standards on Romanization, namely: "Based on the above discussion, I propose that the Manual of Style recommend that for general cases: For Thai-language terms, use the established English spelling of the word, if available. Otherwise, the Royal Thai General System of Transcription should be followed when romanising Thai words into English." Having maintained a residence in Pattaya for 15 years, I have observed a slowly-developing consistency in the re-naming of streets and other sites into English words. You might look at the website of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital. They are a respected hospital used by educated foreigners. They identify their address with the established English spellings that I use in the article. Please remember that Wikipedia is used primarily by English readers looking for information. I think it is imperative that they be given information that they will recognize should they visit Pattaya. In my own case, some time ago I wanted to locate my residence in Google maps. I live on Pratumnak Road, and surely know how to spell my address (as does the local post office). After a long search, I discovered they called my street Phra Tamnak. I assure you that myself and my English-speaking neighbors do not live on nor write our address as Phra Tamnak. Kindly look in Google at the spelling of hotels and condos there. They use the accepted English spelling. Furthermore, I think all the Pattaya names should be consistently spelled "according to the established English spelling" throughout the articles in Wikipedia. However, when I make a change, it is soon reverted back. The consensus on the discussion page is to use the antiquated spellings which are rarely used in Pattaya, and what would give confusing information to a potential visitor to Pattaya; or we may consistently use them as to the widely-used spellings in the city itself. While I recognize that you respect the majority, there are times when the majority is not correct. HELP! Rak-Tai (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably the best way would be to get determinate guidelines in place on Manual_of_Style_(Thailand-related_articles) that would help to settle such disputes generally... AnonMoos (talk) 18:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Please tell me how I may initiate your recommendation. I am quite disturbed by the tone of the comments made by user andy. In the first, on the Pattaya discussion page, he referred to our Pattaya newspapers as "cheap English so-called newspapers." (and my contribution was called stupid). My friend is the editor of a respected Pattaya newspaper, and was deeply offended when I showed him this comment on Wikipedia. The second one is rather a veiled threat to me also by Andy. Here they are:


 * "I fully agree with Paul, especially for the names of districts, subdistricts and towns we have recommended spellings which all follow the RTGS transcription. The street signs more and more follow these spellings, so there is no need to follow the cheap English so-called newspapers of Pattaya in their preferred spellings. I am not fully sure, but the only serious big newspapers (The Nation and Bangkok Post) use the recommended spellings for locations as well. So it would be simply stupid to use a different transcription scheme when there is a standard (which has its limitations however) available. andy (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "It is clearly not good style to continue enforcing your own preferred spelling despite the discussion on Talk:Pattaya has given quite the opposite result. There are much more important things to edit on that article than those spellings, starting an Wikipedia:Edit war on this is clearly not a good idea and won't lead you anywhere. andy (talk) 08:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)"


 * Please continue to help me in the pursuit of getting the names on the Pattaya article to match those used by its residents and businesses. While I am by no means an expert contributor to Wikipedia, I have had many of my articles on various subjects published in the "cheap" Pattaya newspapers, as well as the "Bangkok Post" and the "Nation".
 * I am trying to make an educated contribution to Wikipedia, but such comments will discourage me and perhaps others from joining in this worthy project. Rak-Tai (talk) 06:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)