Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 June 18

= June 18 =

War Memorial Wording
On this War Memorial, the words say '[the soldiers] answered the call to defend a country they never knew and a people they never met'. Shouldn't it be 'defend a country they hadn't known and a people they had never met', because surely they must have met them at some point during the war? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 06:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it means 'never knew' and 'never met' at the time of answering the call, or at the time the call came.- KoolerStill (talk) 11:42, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is why the past perfect should have been used. Using the simple past would imply that these two things ('knowing' and 'meeting') never happened. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:59, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think people know how to use the pluperfect properly anymore. It's almost as misused as the subjunctive. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I partly disagree on the intended meaning here. I think it's supposed to mean they never knew at any point; that they never met the people or the country they were defending up to their death. Does seem rather ambiguous, but a site I found says this: ' [The inscription] also implies (possibly unconsciously on the part of those whoerected it) that the country over which the war was fought never did come to be known,nor its people to be met, in all the months and years in which American servicemen andwomen fought there.' I concur. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

There's prologue and epilogue, but what about something in the middle?
In a book I'm writing, parts 3 and 4 are separated by a fictional essay written by one of the characters. It seems to serve the same function as a prologue or an epilogue, but I cannot find a term that means having one of these in the middle. What should I call it? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 07:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Segue? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Interlude.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The OED has "metalogue" for "a speech delivered between the acts or scenes of a play." Adam Bishop (talk) 12:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * entr'acte. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

OED help
I would greatly appreciate it if someone with access to the online OED would provide me with its complete definition for "behind the eight ball". I am trying to get the article kelly pool to FA status and besides thinking this would make a good reference, I want to see what it says about the origin, if anything. I suppose this should be emailed (my email is enabled) as it would be a copyvio to post it on site. Please also provide any attribution information for the eventual inline citation to be used. Thanks in advance.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Emailed. Algebraist 14:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated! So no separate definition but it is mentioned in the definition for "eight ball" alone, with no origin described unfortunately. Oh well. It was worth a shot.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This gives two possible origins for the expression. This repeats the first and more credible origin explanation.- KoolerStill (talk) 15:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Kooler. Thanks for the links. Just so you know, the first is not a reliable source and they changed their incorrect definition to include Kelly pool as the original after I emailed them to tell them they were wrong. They hedged their bets in response and state that there are two competing claims and they are still wrong (the game of 8-ball wasn't even invented in its current incarnation when the phrase was first being used!). Anyway, I have lots of reliable sources. I just thought the OED would be a good addition.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know how old the phrase is, but I'm astonished to hear that it's older than the game of 8-ball since it fits so well with that game. How old do you think it is?  A Google Books search doesn't seem to find any examples reliably* dated earlier than about 1930.  What date did the OED Online have?
 * * Dates in Google Books, especially older dates, are not always reliable for several reasons: scanning errors; multiple books in a single binding; and, in the case of periodicals and other serials, they may show the date of the first issue rather than the date when the passage was found.
 * I did notice that the description in the first site cited by Kooler is wrong as regard the game of 8-ball, since it says the numbered balls must be potted (sunk) in order. --Anonymous, edited 04:12 UTC, June 19, 2009.

1944 letter which I assume is in German
Dear Sir/Madam,

Would anyone be kind enough to translate, or provide a resume about the content of the attached letter ? The Winrar archive is over 9mb since I didn't want to diminish the readability of the images. I thought about using Google Translate, but I can't decipher most of the words, since it is written in cursive.

Download link:. Rachmaninov Khan (talk) 13:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't access the file. My antivirus program notes that access to this file has been refused and warns that the website's content belongs to the undesired category "phishing". ---Sluzzelin talk  13:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This... is extremely hard to read :( At first I was wondering if it is at all German, since I couldn't make out many of the words, or thought I could read them, but they just weren't German at all, but when I got a bit used to the cursive, I could make out some words that are definitely German: for instance, here's a fragment of a sentence I could make out: "Auf jeden Fall kann mann den lieben Gott danken, daβ..." ("In any case, one can thank the dear Lord, that..."; tenth line from the bottom up). But try as I might, I can't make out most of the cursive... Maybe someone else here is more used to reading scribbly cursive. TomorrowTime (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My dear little Erna (this is the first name of the recipient of the letter, Miss Erna Straßburg in the vicinity of Bremen).
 * After a long time, a sign of life from me. Surely, you have been worried about me in the last few weeks., but, once more, I have been lucky.  The 17th September must have been the bleakest day I have known in the last 5 years.  Unfortunately, we have lost everything, apart from our naked life we could not save anything.  Then we were deployed for some days as ???.  I can tell you, this has been enough for us all.  Unfortunately, as a result of the severe battles, our numbers have dwindeled.  Many of the old comrades (a German war term for fellow soldiers) are not with us anymore.  In any case, we must praise the Lord that he has spared us from hell.  I will tell you more on my next holiday.  We have been pulled back from the combat zone some days ago to give us a break.  We have some private quartiers here.  The area is rather ???.  In addition, we had ??? for a treatment.  These take the fatty (?) things along.
 * PS:the last three sentences do not make any sense to me.)--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The last sentences are indeed very hard to make out; for Cockatoo's question marks, I'd read "felsig" (The area is rather rocky) and "Zivilisten" (In addition, we had civilians for treatment, or rather, In addition, civilians come in for treatment - "private quarters" seems to imply a medical facility). The last sentence has me completely stumped - it seems to say something about "die fetten Lehrer" (the fat teachers), but I cannot make out the rest of it. -- Ferkelparade &pi; 18:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Addendum: For cockatoo's first question marks, I'd read "Infantristen", a variant spelling of "Infanteristen" (meaning, of course, Infantrymen) -- Ferkelparade &pi; 18:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you, FP (was that you just sneezing, you snotty influential piglet ?)  .  "Infantristen" looks spot on.  "Felsig" I dont know, I had thought that the long s was dumped in the orthographic reform of 1901, but a quick check on Sütterlin script (which this is nor really), has it still surviving until 1941.  On the other hand, Mr Müller does not use a long "s" anywhere else in the letter.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sütterlin, huh? Didn't know about that script. This also explains why I had such a hard time making it out, many of the letters seem rather-to-fairly different from the regular cursive I'm familiar with... TomorrowTime (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can't access the file either, but based on Cokatoo"s description could it be "die fetten Leder" There is a saying "jemand über das fette Leder ziehen" or "das fette Leder abziehen" no idea if that would make any sense here. "Die fetten Leiber" might look similar, too. 68.208.122.33 (talk) 20:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC) You might also be interested in the fact that "kleine Erna" might not be a reference to the person being short or a child, but rather have something to do with a kind of joke popular in Northern Germany de:Klein_Erna. I would say the phrases read "Die Gegend ist reichlich fettig. Zumal wir auch Zivilisten zur Behandlung haben. Die bringen denn so die fetten Sachen mit." The area is quite greasy/rich.  In particular since we have civilians coming in for treatment.  They then bring in those greasy things.  (Considering that this was written during the war our idea of "greasy" doesn't adequately translate what he likely meant.) 68.208.122.33 (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I'm impressed by the Wikipedia reference desks as always. ;)

I found out that flickr accepts large files for those that couldn't access the .rar archive. Rachmaninov Khan (talk) 01:41, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39673422@N08/3640286512/sizes/l/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rachmaninov Khan (talk • contribs) 01:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

IPA help
Only just notice on Lea, Lancashire the point that the IPA for "Lea" may not be right. So to make sure it is, can I ask for guidance? "Lea" is pronounced to rhyme with "fear" or "dear", with what I assume(d) to be schwa at the end but am open to correction. Cheers. doktorb wordsdeeds 19:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The conventional IPA for the British English "Recieved Pronunciation" of the words "leer" or (King) "Lear" would indeed be ˈlɪə . However, of course many other dialects of English don't have an ɪə diphthong at all, and usually British monosyllabic ɪə corresponds to a vowel followed by an "r" sound in those rhotic dialects, but the spelling of Lea would seem to indicate otherwise, which can perhaps be considered a little odd... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Cheers for this. I will be best keeping it as the article then. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The person who added the questioning note probably wonders why the word is not spelled with "r" if the pronunciation is as indicated... AnonMoos (talk) 22:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This might be helpful: Category:Requests for audio pronunciation (WP:O). -- Wavelength (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Wording for a copyedit
I'm currently copyediting [this] article, and I wonder about the wording here:
 * Many advocates of using these tools believe (and actively argue or assume) that they create actual communities, and have adopted the term "online communities" to describe the resulting social structures.

If they actively argue or assume, surely they believe? Should I change it to Many advocates actively argue or assume or will that change the meaning? I would ask on the articles' talk page, but it seems dead. Mxvxnyxvxn (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How can you actively assume? (That is to say, there's a parsing problem here). And what's the difference between that and "believe"? The ordering seems confused.
 * "Assume" is more passive than "believe", which is more passive than "argue". I would phrase it as "assume, even actively argue". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Mxvxnyxvxn (talk) 02:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)