Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 June 2

= June 2 =

least tense + aspect
What is the smallest number of tense and aspectual distinctions which any natural languages contains? Mo-Al (talk) 04:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Japanese maybe? It only has past and non-past verb tenses, plus the -te iru form that can represent both perfective and progressive aspects depending on the verb. Zedeeyen (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Japanese has complex -sasetta and -raretta forms. --Kjoonlee 10:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * '-saseta' (causative + past tense ending) and '-rareta' (passive + past tense ending) are not tenses. What Kjoonlee has just written are merely past tenses of verbs with causative and passive infixes, which, in themselves, are not tenses. They can even be combined as '-saserareta' (keeping with Kjoonlee's addition of the past tense marker '-ta') to mean 'was made to [do]', but they are not tenses, in the strictest sense of the word. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Chinese language has no tense or voice, and verbs are not inflected, though it does have aspect and mood expressed by particles. The article on grammatical aspect says English has 2 aspects, while Chinese has 3 aspects, and classical Arabic has no way of marking aspect. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 12:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My Arabic is sadly and quickly fading, but isn't it rather that it only marks aspect (past and non-past), and has no tenses? Adam Bishop (talk) 16:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I suppose that may also be true for Biblical Hebrew. Mo-Al (talk) 23:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but not Modern Hebrew and Syrian Arabic, as well as Moroccan Arabic, which use tenses very akin to European languages. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * English only has two aspects? What of: simple (I work), continuous (I am working), perfect (I have worked), and perfect progressive (I have been working) ? Rhinoracer (talk) 13:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Latin - Nuntius teutonicus
Hi! Any one here know a bit of latin? A friend wants to give a company in a game a latin name along the lines of "Teutonic Messenger". Would that be correctly translated to Nuntius Teutonicus? --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 10:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Your translation is correct if you take "Teutonic" as in "Germanic". A versoin with cursor-is would also work.--91.6.4.58 (talk) 13:34, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * (How else would you take 'Teutonic'?) One ought to explain that cursor is offered as an alternate to nuntius (and cursoris to nuntii). —Tamfang (talk) 07:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

"I" after the time
Please see the second page of the document on File:Instrument of surrender Japan2.jpg.

In this line: Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I and this line: Accepted at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0908 I

What is the meaning of "I" after the time? Wikipedia and Wikisource do not note them as a part of official text, but some sources do. --Sushiya (talk) 15:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Time zones can be identified by letters of the alphabet. Time zone I is the same as UTC+9, i.e. Japan Standard Time; see List of time zones. +Angr 15:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for quick and clear answer! --Sushiya (talk) 15:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Phoneme /x/ in English
I wonder which English words contain a /x/. The only examples crossing my mind are "loch" and "ugh". Has anyone got more? --88.73.83.75 (talk) 17:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have less. In my English that sound does not exist.  --Anonymous, 18:28 UTC, June 2, 2009.


 * See Johann Sebastian Bach. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Many loanwords with /x/ are in common use in the Jewish community, e.g. Channukah, Chanah, Tanakh, Chabad, chassid, etc. Mo-Al (talk) 23:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * See Mach number, Don Quixote, Mexico, and Guadalajara, Jalisco.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 23:27, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think that you can call /x/ an English phoneme. It really only appears in foreign words.  Many English speakers cannot comfortably pronounce it.  Ugh is not part of some English speakers' vocabulary.  Certainly /x/ is not a productive phoneme.  Marco polo (talk) 00:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What is a productive phoneme? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  04:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See Productivity (linguistics) -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That article is talking about productivity with morphemes, not phonemes. I've only heard "productivity" used in the context of morphemes and, possibly, allophonic processes (contrasting with fossilized ones).  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  07:37, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be possible for someone to introduce a new word with a voiceless velar fricative in a company name, or a product name, or a song, or a movie, or a given name, and to popularize the pronunciation, even saying things such as "This [new] word is as different from that other word as Patty is from fatty, so please say it correctly". Let us hope for good decisions.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 20:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Although /x/ is a common phoneme in my dialect (scouse), it does not appear in any dialect's pronunciation of 'ugh'. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

What is this?
I recently found a packet inside my flour/coating mix for chicken. There is no mention of this in the Engrish instructions and IIRC I've purchased this specific brand/type before without this packet. The packet has no English on it only (I believe) tradional Chinese. What is it? Nil Einne (talk) 17:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's salt and pepper. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

German phrase
What does "Geschmuse drumrum" mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.226.251 (talk) 21:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It can mean: (don't) make such a fuss/Mach nicht so nen Geschmuß darum.--Radh (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Downtown, uptown
What do these words mean exactly? I know they refer to parts of a city, but they are not used in British English. Thanks. 78.144.244.22 (talk) 22:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The articles Downtown and Uptown seem to cover the matter reasonably well. Downtown is almost always synonymous with central business district, whereas uptown is more vague, referring to different types of regions, having different spatial relationships to "downtown," in different cities. Even small towns in the United States usually have a region the residents refer to as "downtown" (what in Britain would be called the high street), whereas, in my experience, only largish cities—and by no means all even of them—contain a region referred to as "uptown." Deor (talk) 22:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The terms originated in Manhattan, a narrow island surrounded by rivers, the largest and most important of which is the Hudson (historically known there as the North River). Downtown is the downstream end of the island, the historic core of New York City, and the commercial and industrial core of New York City until the 20th century.  The term downtown became synonymous in the United States with the commercial core of any town, even very small towns, as Deor says.  Uptown was and largely remains specific to Manhattan, where it refers to any part of Manhattan upstream from Downtown.  The term Uptown is not in general use outside of New York City, and most American cities do not have a district called Uptown.  In the few that do, the term is likely to have had its origin in some analogy to Manhattan.

For example, during much of the 19th century, Downtown Manhattan was the site not only of the commercial center, but also of much of New York's industry and the most important part of its port. So the term Downtown had associations not only of commercial centrality but also of grimy docks and factories and unsavory working-class characters. By contrast, much of New York's middle and upper class lived Uptown. (To this day, the most prestigious parts of New York are in Upper Manhattan.) So developers sometimes named parts of other cities Uptown because of associations of exclusivity and refinement. Marco polo (talk) 23:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There is also Downtown Brooklyn. Bus stop (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Downtown Brooklyn is like the many other downtowns all over the United States named after Downtown New York. At the time Downtown Brooklyn was so named, Brooklyn was still an independent city.  Marco polo (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Philadelphia had an "uptown" and "downtown" by 1833 . New Orleans had (with respect to the flow of the Mississippi) uptown and downtown by 1898 . There "upper" and "lower" (like "Lower Ninth Ward" refer to the river. I strongly question that New Orleans or Philadelphia were imitating New York City. Any river town was apt to use this terminology. Edison (talk) 03:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've also assumed for a long time that New York is the origin of the expression, but that's an interesting point about river towns, which does cast doubt on the idea. Some other points:


 * Some cities develop a "second downtown", for whatever reason. Manhattan has one that starts around 34th Street and extends north to 59th (south end of Central Park), and since this area is between Uptown and the original Downtown, it's called Midtown.  I understand that in this case the reason that the city developed this way is that the area between Midtown and Downtown is less suitable geologically for tall buildings.


 * "Up" and "down" are very often used in North America to mean "north" and "south", in reference to the usual layout of maps. Manhattan is conveniently aligned so that Uptown is north of Downtown.  In most cities "downtown" can be used as an adverb meaning "toward downtown".  In Manhattan, that would mean south; but in addition, there only, "uptown" is used to mean "north".  And this usage extends into the Bronx, which is north of Manhattan.  If you board a subway train at 200th Street in the Bronx to go north (away from Uptown Manhattan), it is an "uptown" train.


 * Toronto grew from the north shore of Lake Ontario, so its downtown is both one of the lowest parts and one of the southernmost parts of the city. But today the area north, and uphill, from downtown Toronto is sometimes called either Midtown or Uptown.  Whatever the origins of "downtown", I believe this "Midtown" or "Uptown" usage is copied from New York.


 * --Anonymous, 04:22 UTC, June 3, 2009.


 * From the first 500 results from my Google search for "uptown", I selected http://www.uptownminneapolis.com/, http://www.uptowndallas.net/, http://www.uptown-houston.com/, Uptown, Grand Rapids, http://www.uptownmemphis.org/, http://www.uptowncleveland.com/, http://www.uptowngreenville.com/, Uptown Saint John, http://uptowncincinnati.com/, http://www.uptowngreenwood.com/, http://www.uptownwadesboro.com/, http://www.uptownlexington.com/, http://www.uptownankeny.org/, http://www.dallasuptownguide.com/, http://www.uptown-marceline.com/, http://uptowntoledo.org/, and http://maumeeuptown.com/. I tried to select only websites about communities, omitting websites about real estate companies and other businesses. -- Wavelength (talk) 13:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My Google search for "uptown site:.uk" reported 170,000 results. -- Wavelength (talk) 13:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * An interesting project would be to check large towns in English speaking countries located on rivers flowing North. Likewise East or West. Edison (talk) 15:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There aren't very many rivers that flow north, period. In the US, the only major cities I can think of on north-flowing rivers are Jacksonville, Florida and Stockton, California.  I'm not sure if Fresno, California is on the San Joaquin River, or not.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Downtown Cairo is in Lower Egypt, that is to say, in northern Egypt, and is by the river Nile, which flows northward.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 19:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See http://downtownjacksonville.org/, http://www.downtownstockton.org/, and http://www.downtownfresno.org/.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 20:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A Photographer's Guide to London - photo.net mentions "downtown" three times. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That last page was quite obviously written by an American, so it doesn't prove anything about usage in London. Of course London has a downtown -- they just don't call it that there.  --Anonymous, 23:52 UTC, June 3, 2009.
 * My Google search for "downtown london" site:http://www.bbc.co.uk/ showed five results.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 01:33, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, at least some of these are clearly by non-British contributors via the Internet. On the other hand, if you change "downtown" to "central" in the same search, you get over 5,000 hits.  --Anonymous, 03:40 UTC, June 4, 2009.
 * There aren't very many rivers that flow north, period. There are a great many rivers that flow north, contrary to popular belief. Less so perhaps in the United States due to the geography of mountains and seas. But there are still plenty, depending on how strictly one defines "north flowing"--very few rivers flow exactly north, it is true, but neither do many flow exactly south, east, or west. Some large US cities on or partially on generally north flowing rivers that come to mind, in addition to Jacksonville, include San Jose, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, Cleveland, Lexington, Buffalo, and Rochester. There are many others. Sorry, this topic is something I get pedantic about. Pfly (talk) 06:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Long list of articles ("Downtown ..." and "Uptown ...")
I found the following articles by using WP:QI. Most of them are about various downtowns and uptowns, but I purposely included a few others because of their association with downtowns and uptowns. Some of the articles have maps. I did not spend time in annotating the articles in this list, except for one marked "AfD" ("Articles for Deletion"). -- Wavelength (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Continuation of discussion

 * "Uptown" also means "upscale" or "upper class". I can provide OR on that being the intended meaning in the "Uptown Village at Cedar Hill" example above (used to live around the corner from there). That's also a common use in California. Nothing to do whatsoever with geography. (Also see Uptown Girl)  71.236.26.74 (talk) 03:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There is also Downtown (song), Downtown (Peaches song), Downtown (The Killer Barbies song) Downtown Train, by Tom Waits, Upstairs Downtown, the song, or Uptown Girl, performed by Billy Joel. Implications might be conveyed by cultural entities such as these that potentially have bearing on our perceptions relating to these terms. Bus stop (talk) 12:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The song The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond mentions "the high road" and "the low road", which have been interpreted in relation to different classes of society. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A new one on me. The usual interpretation of the song is that the singer is, or will shortly be, dead, and by taking the "low road" - the paths of the dead, the underworld - as a spirit will return to Scotland more quickly than the auditor of the song who, being alive, will travel via the "high road," which may be both a poetical contrast and a reference to the "high road" in its mundane sense of a main route. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In the article about the song, the section "Interpretation" mentions first an interpretation involving "the underworld" and then an interpretation involving "the low road" as "the ordinary road traveled by peasants and commoners".
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * [I corrected "Interpretations" (plural) to "Interpretation" (singular). -- Wavelength (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)]
 * [I divided the section into three subsections. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC)]
 * If "the low road" signified "the ordinary road traveled by peasants and commoners," what did "the high road" signify - I'm not aware that Scotland ever featured roads reserved for the upper classes. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That interpretation of the song was added in three consecutive edits on 25 December 2006 by Prukin, who made only those contributions to Wikipedia.  In that interpretation, "the high road" means, somewhat vaguely, "the most important road". -- Wavelength (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)