Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 12

= May 12 =

Queensland
Do Australians pronounce the word Queensland more like 'kwiːnz lənd or 'kwiːnz lænd? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 01:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See (and hear) http://www.forvo.com/search/queensland/. -- Wavelength (talk) 03:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know the official way to write this, but the vowel in land is almost not pronounced. It sounds like Queenslin.KoolerStill (talk) 12:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can listen to http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/radio/. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm Australian, and I'm fairly sure if you heard it on the news, it would be 'Queensland,' your second one. Otherwise, it would probably depend on the speaker. I don't know for certain, but I think I would use the second myself. More rapid speakers would almost certainly pronounce the last syllable as "lnd" or "ln" (without much of a vowel). —Preceding unsigned comment added by It's Been Emotional (talk • contribs) 15:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My Australian accents says ['kwiːnzlæn], but my accent's frequently a bit modified towards RP. Steewi (talk) 00:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Both are used. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

French "quelle"
Hello, my favorite reference desk! I have a French question for you. Our entry at Wiktionary for "quelle" says that it's sometimes used as an exclamation. Would any (hopefully native speakers) be able to expound on the use of this word in an exclamation? What connotations it might have, any parallels in English, how often it's used, etc. Thanks. seresin ( ¡? )  05:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a native speaker, but as far as I know, it isn't used by itself as an exclamation, but rather together with a noun to mean "What a ...!". For example, Quelle surprise! for "What a surprise!" (The masculine quel can of course also be used that way, as in Quel dommage! "What a pity!") +Angr 06:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The form got some currency in English with Breakfast at Tiffany's; at least, I had one friend whose usage I didn't 'get' until I saw the movie! —Tamfang (talk) 03:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny, that's my favorite movie of all time, but I don't remember her using "quelle" that way. I do remember "Quelle horrible surprise" being used in Pursuit of Love, Love in a Cold Climate and Don't Tell Alfred, though. We used it in my family as a result of those books, always pronouncing "horrible surprise" as English words rather than French ones. +Angr 06:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm. Perhaps I'm confused.  That's never happened before. —Tamfang (talk) 05:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Translation of 'non sequitur'
I was wondering what the literal translation of 'non sequitur' is in Spanish?.. The internet yielded little results but did say the 'incongruencia' or incongruity could be it but that doesn't really fit with the definition of non sequitur... Thanks for any help 83.33.73.241 (talk) 08:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The Spanish WP has: en latín «no se sigue» in the entry for non sequitur (logic). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Non sequitur has a link to es:Non sequitur, which says «no se sigue». -- Wavelength (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me note, in passing, that the Latin deponent verb has been translated into a (striclty) pronominal verb in Spanish. Pallida  Mors  18:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not really the same though...that's the Spanish translation of the literal Latin meaning of non sequitur (does not follow), not its current meaning involving logic. -Elmer Clark (talk) 04:20, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't see your point, Elmer. Both Spanish seguir (see DRAE, definition 13) and Latin sequi (cf. OLD's 7th definition) refer to this logical meaning. That meaning in Latin is at least as old as Cicero! Pallida  Mors  22:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Nomenclature query for weaponry buffs
Posted on the Bayonet discussion page. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Operetta empire
In this article, the last sentence regarding Napoleon turning Elba into an "operetta empire". Searching through Google, there are very few hits of this word. Out of curiosity, what does this mean and what is it's origin?--Blue387 (talk) 09:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The period equivalent of Freedonia (though that doesn't help with the origin).-- Deborahjay (talk) 09:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC) User:Nunh-huh's response is far more convincing; ignore the above. Deborahjay (talk) 09:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, I think Freedonia is a great example. - Nunh-huh 09:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Shall we say Freedonia is a parody of the romance-Ruritania? -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * yes, a sort of send-up of something already ridiculous. - Nunh-huh 14:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See Ruritanian romance; essentially, a kingdom (in this case, an empire) of high romance, ornate spectacle, and elaborate ritual, rather than one with actual power and importance. - Nunh-huh 09:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh-- origins.... this is the type of kingdom featured, at least stereotypically, in many operettas. I'd give examples, but it seems our "List of operettas" has been incorporated into our "Opera corpus", so it's now pretty much useless for this purpose. - Nunh-huh 09:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, "royaume d'opérette" is idiomatic in French. It would be the equivalent of the expression Banana republic. That's the likely source of the original article. --Xuxl (talk) 14:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

French Translations:7
I am unsure of the use of "on" in the French language. I am learning French from Heath's Practical French Grammar which was published in 1901. Modern day French language does not use "on" in the same way as I have learnt. In particular, I am unsure on the following translations (please tell me whether each translation is correct or not):

1. "Somebody rings" - "On sonne"

2. "First, the soup is brought" - "On apporte le potage"

3. "There is no fruit on the table now" - "Il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table maintenant"

4. "People take coffee at dessert" - "On prend du café au dessert"

5. "Then they go up stairs" - "Ensuite on va en haut"

6. "Then they go into the library" - "Ensuite on entre dans la bibliothèque"

My main doubts are:

(a) What are exactly the uses of "on" in the French language? Do my translations above reflect the correct usage?

(b) In 3. above, could "maintenant" have started the sentence? Does it matter, the position of such words in the sentence?

(c) "Then they go up the stairs" - "Ensuite on monte l'escalier". "Then they go up stairs" - "Ensuite on va en haut". Are these translations correct (notice the subtle difference).

Thankyou for your help in advance. I would greatly appreciate it if I was told whether my answers to 1. - 6. are correct or not, rather than a link. I always search many websites before asking questions here, so links are in general of no use to me. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 09:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Sentence 3 doesn't have an on in it at all. For sentences 1, 2, and 4 your translations are basically right; on is an impersonal pronoun meaning "one/someone/people in general", etc. However, on can also be used personally to mean "we", and that's how I would interpret 5 and 6: Ensuite on va en haut = "Then we're going upstairs"; Ensuite on entre dans la bibliothèque = "Then we're going into the library". Note that the interpretation of on as "we" is robust enough that a following participle has to agree in number and gender with it: for example, if two or more women arrive somewhere and want to say "We've arrived", it's spelled On est arrivées. (Something I noticed in an episode of Absolutely Fabulous with French subtitles.) +Angr 10:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not mandatory to make the past participle agree in number and gender. It is correct to write On est arrivé even though on refers to women. On est arrivées is an optional syllepsis. The (optional) syllepsis may also concern adjectives as in On est des fous et on en est fiers: We are mad and proud of it. In France this kind of optional syllepsis is not taught in primary schools, as you can guess. (My French grammar book: Le bon usage by Grévisse, ed. 1988) – AldoSyrt (talk) 09:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Is 3. right? Also, is "I am returning home now" translated as "Je retourne a la maison, maintenant"? Thanks again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 11:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe 3 is right. For "I'm returning home now" I'd use Je retourne chez moi maintenant. À la maison is more literally "to the house". +Angr 11:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In English, up stairs is an adverb phrase which means "by way of stairs" or "via stairs". The expression upstairs (one word) is an adverb which means "on the floor above" or "to the floor above" (that is, the one directly above) (also, to or on any floor above, even five floors above, for example).  In this context, the preposition above can refer to the perspective of a person on the lower floor (or on any of a number of lower floors), or to the perspective of someone who is not even in the same building.  Also, one can go upstairs by using an elevator or an escalator. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder if we could translate "Then they go up stairs" by Puis, on monte un escalier or Ensuite, on monte des marches and "Then they go upstairs" by Ensuite, on va en haut or Puis, on monte or (usual phrase but faulty - it's a pleonasm) Puis, on monte en haut. – AldoSyrt (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You could also use "la soupe" for #2...or is that just my debased Quebec patois? Anyway, that one is a good example of "on" being used to translate an English passive. French seems to dislike the passive voice. (You could also say "le potage s'apporte".) Adam Bishop (talk) 19:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but le potage s'apporte is not correct. (En français, on ne dit pas "le potage s'apporte"). – AldoSyrt (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh...why? Just doesn't work with that verb? Adam Bishop (talk) 08:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was too adamant. This sentence cannot be translated as D'abord, la soupe s'apporte, because – I think – the soup cannot make the action itself. At passive voice: Le potage est apporté (by someone). But you are not wrong, you could say le potage s'apporte dans une soupière en faïence or c'est maintenant que s'apporte le potage. – AldoSyrt (talk) 11:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think On monte would be more usual than On va en haut. —Tamfang (talk) 04:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Sentence 2. "First" is not translated: D'abord, on apporte le potage or la soupe. –AldoSyrt (talk) 08:05, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * About doubt (b)and sentence 3. As a French native speaker I would say Là maintenant, il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table, Là, il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table, Actuellement, il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table or (olde) Présentement, il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table. No problem to say Il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table, là maintenant but the meaning of Il n'y a pas de fruit sur la table là is different (this table). You can say either Maintenant, je retourne chez moi or Je retourne chez moi maintenant. – AldoSyrt (talk) 15:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I found this link: Internet Archive: Free Download: Key to Heath's new practical French grammar. However, the date mentioned is 1922 instead of 1901. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese word "zhai" in Chinese characters
Can any user please tell me how to write the Chinese word "zhai" meaning "fast-day" in Chinese characters. Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 齋--K.C. Tang (talk) 14:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 09:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Foreign translations of It's Morphin Time!
Can someone give me the foreign translations of the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers phrase "It's Morphin Time!"? David Pro (talk) 21:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * These aren't literal translations, but what I found to be the synchronized equivalents on other Wikipedias:
 * Bosnian: "Vrijeme je za morfiranje"
 * Spanish: "¡Iniciar Morphosis!" (in Spain, "¡A metamorfosearse!")
 * French: "Transmutation !"
 * Polish "Transformacja!"
 * Portuguese: "É Hora de Morfar!
 * ---Sluzzelin talk  21:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And though German Wikipedia doesn't give the phrase in German, Power Rangers Wiki does! "Zeit zum Verwandeln!". ---Sluzzelin talk  02:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A rough Arabic translation would probably be something like: هذا هو الوقت للتغيير
 * "Hathahi huwwa al-waktu liltageyera!"-- Wrad (talk) 02:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And a good Latin translation might be "Mutate!" (Pronounced "mutahtay!") if you just used the imperative. Or "Tempestivitas mutandi est!" Correct me if I'm wrong on that last one. Wrad (talk) 02:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * For Latin I kinda like "Mutandum est!" (passive periphrastic) or "Mutemur!" (the first person plural subjunctive passive, quasi middle). I think the active leaves a syntactic hole where a direct object should be, since muto is most commonly used to mean "change" (change what?).--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 03:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * In Japanese it would be 「変身するぞ！」 ('henshin suru zo')--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)