Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 15

= May 15 =

"The weak perish first" in Latin
I've been told it's Fragilis primo pereo. Would this be right? Peter Greenwell (talk) 05:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As a rough translation, I suppose. It more literally means "As a fragile person, I perish first". It doesn't seem to be an established Latin phrase, though; the only place I could find it online is here, which I assume is the place you asked first. I'd go for "Imbecilli pereunt primi"; but better yet would be to find a line from Latin literature that expresses roughly the same idea. There must be dozens of quotes from the Aeneid that glorify strength and courage that you can use on your tattoo. +Angr 06:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's where it's from, but it's not me getting the tatt. I'm trying to help the OP out. I didn't think Fragilis primo pereo was 100% as my rudimentary Latin skills tell me verbs ending in "o" are "I" verbs, i.e sitio I thirst, volvo I turn, etc. Peter Greenwell (talk) 07:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably whoever answered the question just looked up "weak", "perish", and "first" in an English-Latin dictionary and didn't bother with minor details like inflections. Latin has several words for "weak": imbecillus, debilis, invalidus, infirmus. It's difficult to find the right one; some of them imply temporary weakness due to illness, hunger, etc., others imply weakness due to physical disability. +Angr 07:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * List of Latin phrases might help. You may also be able to find the phrase turned around: Only the strong/brave survive/win.  71.236.24.129 (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A couple of good ones from Latin proverbs are Fortes fortuna iuvat (Fortune favors the strong) and Fortis cadere, cedere non potest "A brave man may fall, but he cannot yield." +Angr 15:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Iberian Levant
What is the "Iberian Levant"?68.148.149.184 (talk) 08:57, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * the east coast, i.e., area near the Mediterranean but not that facing south equivalent to modern Catalonia and Valencia mainly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnewmanqc (talk • contribs) 12:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Is "at least one of them" singular or plural?
Answers gratefully received. --81.136.143.173 (talk) 13:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "One" is the subject and takes a singular verb form: At least one of them is ready for breakfast. I presume you ask because "at least" could mean "more than one". It is the actual construct that determines the verb form, not the possible interpretation, or so I understand. A linguist may be along shortly with a better technical explanation. // BL \\ (talk) 13:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Linguists usually answer this sort of question with description rather than prescription. E.g. "at least one of them is" gets 2,630,000 google hits, while "at least one of them are" gets 65,600. This is strong evidence that the singular verb form is currently standard English. :) Indeterminate (talk) 07:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

American Spanish Accents, Learning and Podcasts
For someone attempting to learn to speak Spanish in North America to people from many regions of South America, is there any accent that is preferable?

As a comparison, for (most) English speakers a mid-western accent sounds neutral and clear, while Scottish or some brands of Southern accent can be very difficult to understand.

For the spanish accents that are preferable, are there any language podcasts (news, etc) that you know of that use it?

Thanks for any help,

--Grey1618 (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Spanish dialects and varieties has a lot of information, though a lot of it seems aimed at linguists. I always suspected this was a matter of national pride, but my understanding is that Spanish as spoken in Mexico is considered clear and easy to understand.  Harder-to-understand accents include those from Argentina and Nicaragua.  And Spain.  Another matter apart from accents:  A lot of Central American Spanish and Argentina use the voseo which is understood but would stand out in speech.  Mexico is, I believe, the source of most Spanish-language television content throughout the Americas, which might imply everyone in the Americas has plenty of exposure to hearing the Mexican accent.  No offense to anyone I've just slandered by impugning the quality of their accent.  Tempshill (talk) 16:07, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of the media translated from English to Spanish is in "Español neutro" (neutral Spanish) which is different from the Mexican accent. Best regards, Alpertron (talk) 17:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * However, the OP asked about speaking to people from many regions of South America, so neither Mexican nor Central American Spanish may be optimal. Is there a South American variety of Spanish that's considered most acceptable across that Continent? What do Colombians think of Argentine Spanish, for example, or Argentinians of Colombian Spanish? +Angr 16:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll post to the Cafe on es and ask for opinions to be posted here. Tempshill (talk)
 * In my very United-States-centric way when I said 'South America' I meant 'Everywhere South of America' which would include Central America. Sorry for not being clear.  --Grey1618 (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * When you speak to Spanish-speaking people, that confussion can be troublesome... There is no an accent neutral, always you will be compelled to make a choice between words belonging to a group of varieties. But, people will unsderstand you. A more important issue is that you understan people when the use their particular forms. It is a good idea to focus in a country (Mexico, Argentina, Spain) and become a master in its variety. Bye. Lin linao (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah. I would have said "Latin America" for that. +Angr 17:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That Neutral Spanish article that Alpertron pointed out is very interesting - it mentions 4 varieties of Spanish that are commonly used for this, though the paragraph listing them doesn't have a source citation. Tempshill (talk) 19:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Learning exclusively in Southern California from teachers who came from all over the Spanish-speaking world (including Cuba, Colombia, Argentina, a Basque, and a Catalonian), now using my acquired Spanish decades later in an immigrant population mostly from Argentina and vicinity, I can report that I still understand Mexicans the best and my own speech is Mexican-influenced, to the overt derision of the Argies. Reading Spanish-language newspapers is a great way to keep up your vocabulary and stay familiar with syntax. My best advice is to learn spoken Spanish however's most convenient for you, and when you get into conversations you'll be able to express yourself. Understanding your dialogue partners' spoken language will very much depend on where they're from, and that comes with experience. For a first step in developing expressive fluency, chat via IM - that eliminates the "accent" problem on both sides! -- Deborahjay (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * My experience as an American student of Spanish is that the Mexican dialect is the one almost always taught (although I did have one Cuban-American teacher who tended to use Cuban Spanish). Many reasons account for this: Mexico has by far the largest Spanish-speaking population in the world. I find they tend to speak slower than some other dialects (esp. Cuban & Puerto Rican). Most Spanish speakers in the U.S. are from Mexico. The U.S. shares a long border with Mexico. And Mexican Spanish tends not to have some of the peculiarities of other dialects (such as voseo and vosotros). These are necessarily generalizations especially considering that Mexico has several different dialects of its own. —D. Monack talk 07:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)