Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 November 1

= November 1 =

The study of borders
Is there a word for an interest in (the study of) borders? I am fascinated with borders, enclaves and exclaves, overseas territories, and tripoints. I'm not as into the countries themselves, rather, where one ends and another begins. Is there a term for this interest? -- Codell Talk 02:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, as you may have noticed in the Border article, it mentions the study of borders but does not give a name to it. I put [borders study] into Google and the second that came up (after an entry for the Borders bookstore chain) was the wikipedia article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Liminology" has some results on Google that seem to deal with the study of borders of various kinds. The Greek word for "border" escapes me but I suppose you could form an -ology from it. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * How about Quadripoints? They're cute. Bus stop (talk) 03:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I couldn't get the same result for "borders study" in Google. The Greek word for border is Σύνορα, so would "sunoraology" be correct? I like quadripoints too but no international ones current exist so I didn't include it in the list. -- Codell Talk 05:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually I know at least one quadripoint: China, Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan. I think it would be sunorology in English phonology.174.3.111.148 (talk) 09:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would considered the study of borders a subfield of political geography. I've long been interesting in the topic but cannot think of a term for it. Also, I'd recommend against the term "Quadripoint". It would be nice to have an English term for such things, but as far as I can tell "quadripoint" is a neologism created by Wikipedians, via a translation from some German term, iirc. In short, it is a term that little usage outside Wikipedia, as far as I can tell. The books I have that focus on the history, quirks, etc, of political borders tend to use the word "shape", as in "The Shaping of America", or "How the States got their Shapes". I'm skeptical about their being a non-arcane non-neologistic word for it. Pfly (talk) 09:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Quibble: quadripoint was in use by fans of such things before there was Wikipedia. It may be true that the geeks who coined it later put it into Wikipedia themselves, but "created by Wikipedians" is a little bit misleading. —Tamfang (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Mongolia and Kazakhstan do not touch so technically it's not a quadripoint. "At present there are no generally recognized quadripoints involving four different countries", but you can look at subnational ones like Utah-Colorado-Arizona-New Mexico.80.123.210.172 (talk) 10:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Surely it should be synorology rather than sunorology - the Greek upsilon is regularly transliterated as y in Latin and hence in most English derivatives. --rossb (talk) 17:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should, although Google has no evidence of "synorology". Adam Bishop (talk) 18:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Meaning
What is "Stype"?174.3.111.148 (talk) 08:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * From the context given in the article, it would appear that Stype is a person who wrote about ancient history (antiquarian). --TammyMoet (talk) 09:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's actually a typo for Strype, John Strype to be precise. An "antiquarian", by the way, is basically any early modern historian, who did not use the critical techniques of modern historical study (they didn't necessarily study ancient history, they could have studied their own contemporary history, like Strype). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * He was the Vicar of Leyton, Essex - now in east London.Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Russian translation
I moved Party of Belarusian Communists, after noting that ru wikipedia article had been moved and there's a reference that the party changed its name recently. But just after moving, I recalled that 'Mir' can also mean 'world'. What would be a good translation into English of the name 'Белорусская партия объединенных левых "Справедливый мир"'? --Soman (talk) 10:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty has translated the name as "Belarusian Party of United Leftists — A Just World". --Cam (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

grape variety pronunciation
How is the grape variety 'TANNAT' pronounced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.21.59 (talk) 12:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * FWIW: The French WP states that the term originated in the Occitan language.  Maybe there is a linguist online who has a grasp of this language / dialect?  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Language is the best term. From my non-native knowledge, it should be pronounced [ta'nat] with emphasis on the second syllable. Occitan doesn't have geminate consonants, so the doubled N in the spelling shouldn't affect the pronunciation. Steewi (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

What does Sjt. Prefix stand for in English.
Hi

I am from India, and had read a book about Ghandhiji (Father of the nation, India). In that i had found prefix before names. The prefix was Sjt. Could you tell me what does that mean.? 117.204.116.132 (talk) 12:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.
 * It seems to mean Sergeant, the army rank. Tinfoilcat (talk) 16:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Though that is more commonly abbreviated "Sgt." (for obvious reasons). ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Serjeant" is an alternative spelling, as in Serjeant-at-Arms. --Tango (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a discussion about the use of "Sjt" vs. "Sgt". --  JackofOz (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a look at Serjeant-at-law.Alansplodge (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It means Srijut. Srijut (Sjt.) is a common title equivalent to "Esquire". Though it went on to become Sri, but the title 'Srijut' still appears in old Hindi texts.

Recording Spanish Internet Radio Talk Shows in MP3 format
Hi,

I have never used an ipod. I am studying spanish and listening to spanish internet radio stations.

Is there a way to record the shows and replay them, ideally on something like an ipod that I can take with me on the bus or when I jog.

Thank you for your help. I really appreciate the services provided by Wikipedia. It is where I look first for information.

Ramona Whyte —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.231.224 (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * A lot of radio stations offer a podcast of certain shows on the Internet that you could download directly to your iPod. If the radio station you have in mind doesn't, I'm sure there are plenty of other Spanish-language stations that do. As far as recording their online radio streaming, it depends: companies that stream media usually don't want people downloading it onto disk space because of copyright violations. This is especially true of TV stations that offer old episodes of shows online. The same probably goes for radio because of copyrighted music. There may be some programs out on the Internet that try to save the stream, but I'd just save myself the trouble and find some Spanish podcasts.--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 20:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This Google search gives some possibilities for capturing the audio stream. --Richardrj talkemail 08:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have used Hidownload for capturing streaming data. If you do this, it's quite possible it will be in Real Audio format, which your MP3 player probably won't play.  I have used the ALO converter to transcode this. --Phil Holmes (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Strange english sentences to latin sentences
Hello, I have in a frenzy of interest, gone "all over" google to find an effective latin sentence translator that doesn't give me a bunch of mangled words. I've failed completly, therefore I ask you nice editors to please translate these following weird sentences for me:


 * Fireball, fly
 * Special water orb, rise
 * Homing (A lá Sidewinder missile)

Thanks in advance

81.228.157.244 (talk) 19:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Um... Clarification: are you telling a fireball to fly, and a special water orb to rise?  The last one makes little sense to me in English, so I couldn't translate it.  I am somewhat doubtful that Latin had a word for fireball, but you never know (I'm going to use "ball of fire").  I'll give those first two phrases a shot, assuming that they mean what I suspect they mean.


 * Pila flammae, vola.
 * Orbis precipuus aquae, consurge. Falconus p t   c 20:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it's just some fiction related terms recently orbiting my head, I also used ball of fire in my somewhat dog latin attempt with the help of wiktionary, somehow I wasn't satisfied with pila incendo, vola. 81.228.157.244 (talk) 20:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Last one stricken. 81.228.157.244 (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Latin had lots of words for "meteor" which could be translated "fireball". I don't think they had a word for "water orb" though, and they certainly had nothing that could mechanically aim itself like a missile. For fireball you could use "cometes", or "fax", which usually means torch. You could also say "fuge" for "fly", and "fax, fuge!" is nice and alliterative. "Orbis specialis aqueus, surge" doesn't sound like something a Latin speaker would normally say. For "homing", maybe "revertens" for "returning home" but I guess not that's not quite right... [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam

Bishop]] (talk) 20:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Why not make use of Latin's volitional subjunctive to avoid awkwardly addressing the inanimate objects? Then you could say "fax fuget," which would translate literally back to English as something like "Let the fireball fly!" but still work as a figurative translation as "Fireball, fly!" Probably would be more likely to come from a Latin speaker's lips, too. (Of course, there's always that weird third-person imperative, which is also an option.)--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 20:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean "fax, fugito!"? (Also known as a "future imperative"?) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's it!--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 05:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I think homing has a possible translation. I don't know if they had sidewinders or pigeons in Rome but they definitely had arrows and a likely allegory would be an arrow finding its target --80.189.132.211 (talk) 17:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, a form of "dirigere" could be used. But I seem to recall that for arrows and spears they used "conicere" or "iacere", which doesn't really have a connotation of directed flight as much as shooting them in a general direction and hoping they kind of land where they were supposed to. I'm sure there must be some phrase for specific aiming of an arrow, but the best I can come up with is the verb "sagittare". Adam Bishop (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Pron. of leucism
Can someone tell me the correct pronunciation of leucism? Is the c hard or soft? Look-izm seems oddly apropos - or is it closer to luke-izm? I'd appreciate a non-IPA answer, but the article needs one. Matt Deres (talk) 22:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Given the leuc-/leuk- prefix comes from the same Greek word and the same background as leukemia, I'd say pronounce the vowel the same way you would there. For me, that makes it luke-izm. 86.142.224.71 (talk) 22:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be convinced by that argument, since 1) 'leuk(a)emia' is spelt with a 'k' not a 'c', 2) the OED gives an '-s-' pronunciation for 'leucine' and 'leucite', and 3) the second element in 'leukaemia' is 'haem' so if the combination had occurred within Greek it would have had a 'χ' (chi) rather than a 'κ' (kappa), and probably come into English as 'leuchaemia' (which in fact the OED does give as an obsolete alternative spelling - the 'k' appears to have come from the German word that was the immediate precursor of the English one).
 * None of which is conclusive: the answer is 'it is pronounced the way(s) that people who say the word pronounce it', but of course that's not much help. But arguments from analogy, logic, or history, though suggestive, must crumble if in fact it turns out that people do say it in a way that those arguments would imply. FWIW, I would say 'lyoosizm' --ColinFine (talk)


 * The Etymology section of article says the "correct" pronunciation is with a hard c; but many would be tempted to soften the c (cf. words ending in -icism), so maybe the "correct" spelling is with a k (leukism). --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * FWIW, leukocyte (or leucocyte) has the same kind of issue. Mostly, I've heard luke-ah-site, but I've also heard people who seem to know what they're talking about say it much more like look-ah-site. At least there, "white blood cell" exists as another option :). Matt Deres (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The blog by someone obviously rather ignorant of classical English usage, which our article uses as a reference, is hardly convincing. I mean, he says leuci- should be pronounced with a /k/ sound because leuco- is pronounced with a /k/ sound, which is just silly. There are thousands of pairs of related words in English where a cee in the root alternates in pronunciation between /k/ and /s/, depending on the following vowel. That's the norm. It may be that herpetologists, or some herpetologists, or perhaps just the biology department of the university where this blog writer got his degree, pronounce leucism with /k/, or perhaps there's disagreement between those who use the English pronunciation with an /s/, and those who attempt an "authentic" Greek pronunciation with a /k/. But IMO, this is like saying that decimal should be pronounced with /k/, because decade is pronounced with /k/, and they are both based on the Greek root dec- "ten", which in Greek was pronounced with /k/. And to take his analogy to its logical conclusion, with Greek-derived cee always pronounced /k/, his example of leucocyte would be "correctly" pronounced LEW-koh-kyte (or even better, LEF-koh-keet).


 * If you want a counter-argument, leucic, leucine, and leucite, all of which contain the same Greek root leuc- "white", are all pronounced with /s/. Even closer semantically, the perhaps obsolete word leucæthiop (a Black albino) is (or was) pronounced with an /s/. kwami (talk) 03:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyway, there's a poll in the forum that the article uses to justify its prescriptive stance, which shows 90% use /s/ and 10% use /k/. This agrees with the OED and standard English pronunciation of Greek & Latin. Therefore the pronunciation is /s/, with the hellenic /k/ an infrequent alternate, as is commonly the case with technical words. I'll change the article. kwami (talk) 03:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)