Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 15

= October 15 =

"Oink Oink" in Greek
Almost all languages have a special word which indicates the sound made by the pig. The only execptions (as far as I know) are the languages spoken by peoples among which the bacon/pork is a taboo (due to religious reasons), e.g. Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu (all of which are main languages of muslim population), and Hebrew (being a main language of jewish population).

Surprisingly, there's also an unexpected exception: Greek! Why does Greek have no word for "Oink Oink"? Aren't there pigs in Greece? HOOTmag (talk) 00:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm curious to know how you determined these facts about Greece and about countries where pork is not on the menu. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * See here. HOOTmag (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Let's not confuse religious taboos with "Oh my God! What's that? I've never seen anything like it before! What do you call it, a peg, er, pig? Wow." DOR (HK) (talk) 02:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, most of them haven't heard a pig grunt or squeal. But why? because they don't raise pigs, because their meat is a taboo! However, I would like to know why Greek has no word for "oink oink"! Bacon/pork is not a taboo in Greece, right? HOOTmag (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, most pork-eaters have never met a pig, either. --Sean 13:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * So how do the English speakers know its sound is "oink oink"? They must have some tradition having started by some English speakers who did hear a pig, right? HOOTmag (talk) 18:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * From culture and media, I guess. I'm just saying a very small part of the population ever steps foot on a farm.  --Sean 21:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Which culture? Which media? The English culture/media tells us that the pig's sound is "oink oink", and the French culture/media tells us it's "groin groin", and the Japanese culture/media tells us it's "boo boo", while the Arabic/Persian/Turkish/Urdu/Hebrew culture/media has nothing to tell us about the pig's sound. How come? because every media is based on culture, and every culture is based on tradition, and every tradition about the sound of pigs is based on some people (being "a very small part of the population" as you've called that) who simply heard a pig. That's what the English culture (about the pig's sound) is based on, and that's why the Arabic/Persian/Turkish/Urdu/Hebrew culture can't tell us anything about the pig's sound. HOOTmag (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah I'm going to have to see a source before I believe that these languages have no word for the sound of a pig... -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * See here.
 * Additionally, as a native Hebrew speaker, I can approve of the absence of "oink oink" (or any parallel sound) in Hebrew, although Hebrew does have a word for the pig, because it's mentioned in the Bible - as an animal which mustn't be on the menu... I believe that most native Hebrew speakers (including those who speak no other language) have seen a pig, mainly in photos etc. (there are no pigs in zoos visited by Hebrew speakers), but they simply haven't heard a pig! (how many times have you heard pigs in movies?), and I believe that the same is in Persian, Turkish, and other languages spoken by peoples among which the bacon/pork is a taboo, as you can see also at the website mentioned above.
 * However, I can't understand why Greek has no word for the sound of a pig!
 * HOOTmag (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The Arabic Wikipedia says "قباع" (qabaa`a, I suppose) is the sound a pig makes. Not quite "oink", but rather guttural. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It means: "a grunt". As far as I know, Arabic has no parallel sound for the English "oink oink", although it does have a word for "grunting". HOOTmag (talk) 09:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hans Wehr, and Google for that matter, say it is specifically the grunting of a pig. Isn't that essentially what you're looking for? (Of course, Wehr also says it can mean the trumpeting of an elephant.) Adam Bishop (talk) 19:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course, it's the grunting of a pig, that's what I meant when I wrote "a grunt" (i.e. a pig's grunt). But what's the sound made by the pigs when they grunt? The English/Italian/Spanish speakers claim that this sound is "oink oink". The French speakers claim that it's: "groin groin". The German speakers say it's: "grunz". The Japanese speakers say it's: "boo boo". Every language has its own sound for the pig's grunt (see here for other languages, and for other animals).
 * To summerize our issue, try to distinguish between the (existent) Arabic word for a "grunt" (made by a pig), and the (non-existent) Arabic word for the English "oink oink", i.e. for the French "groin groin", i.e. for the German "grunz", i.e. for the Japanese: "boo boo", i.e. for the sound made by the pigs when they grunt. Neither Arabic, nor Persian, nor Turkish, nor Urdu, nor Hebrew, have a word for the English "oink oink", although they do have a word for "a pig's grunt".
 * HOOTmag (talk) 20:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I recognize that modern Hebrew has been used as a literary language (in the sense of secular fiction/non-fiction), etc. for only about a century, but I would think that in some context on a rare basis, some Hebrew (or perhaps Yiddish) speaking writer had mentioned a pig or similar animal and the sound it makes? Moreover, as for the other languages mentioned, we should recall that not every one of their speakers is Muslim--might not Christian Arabs, etc. have their own word for oink oink? --71.111.194.50 (talk) 12:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yiddish? I'm talking about Hebrew speakers who speak no other language. I don't remember any Hebrew text mentioning the sound made by the pig.
 * The Christian Arabs who speak Arabic only, share the same problem with non-jews who speak Hebrew only. Their native language has no word for the sound the pig makes, due to the historical background of their native language.
 * HOOTmag (talk) 18:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure Greek has a word – there is one in the children's song "Kokoraki" as performed by Donald Swann. See for an image of Swann's pronunciation notes. It looks as if he wrote "snort" :) but the transcriber has written "hrrr-hrrr" underneath. There must be an mp file out there somewhere. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As you've indicated, the writer didn't write the sound made by the pig. It's just the transcriber, who wrote "hrrr" in Latin alphabet; However, In this forum, somebody calling themself "Director CrisAK", cited (at: 14:09) the same song - but in the Greek alphabet, with the pig's sound: "hr hr hr" (or rather, in Greek alphabet: χρ χρ χρ).
 * Anyways, this website and also this website (the latter being also with an audio) give another version of the song (in Greek alphabet), and the sound given there is "gruis-gruis" (γρουτς-γρουτς), while another website gives (in a very similar version of the song): "guutsuu-guutsuu" (γούτσου-γούτσου), while this website, p. 9, gives: "gruu-gruu-gruu" (γρούγρούγρού), but in p. 10 it gives: "gron-gron" (γρον γρον) and also (ibid.): "grn grn" (γρν γρν). Another website gives: "nkrmuuf nkruumf" (γκρμουφ γκρουμφ), and also: "mpam-mpam" (μπαμ μπαμ). So now I'm really confused, with such a wonderful variety of the pig's sounds - according to the Greeks! HOOTmag (talk) 18:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Modern Greek γκρμουφ γκρουμφ would more naturally be rendered in English "gruf grumf", and μπαμ μπαμ "bam-bam" --rossb (talk) 23:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. HOOTmag (talk) 23:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC). -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * FYI, everyone: Israelis of whatever religion and dietary observance are arguably about as likely to have heard a live pig as would the inhabitants of any other country where that animal is raised commercially. Wild boar living in the Galilee are known as a dangerous animal, sometimes hunted for sport or winding up as road kill on unlit country back roads. The Hebrew language has a word (noun, verb) for "[to] grunt (like a pig)" which is the same noun/verb as "[to] snore." Children asked to "make the sound" of a pig/hog/boar are likely to produce a snort rather than using a particular "word," and can tell you that a pig "grunts" (nokher; נוחר) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Unknown chinese fabric item


Hi all - not sure whether this desk or the miscellaneous desk is best for this one... my partner has an odd Chinese item which she bought at a second-hand shop fairly recently, and neither of us has a clue what it is. It is about 2.5 metres (8 ft) long and 30 cm (1 ft) wide, and shaped a bit likke a giant necktie, though constant in width throughout. It has a central red cotton panel with yellow seal-script writing printed on it, with the pictograms repeating regularly after every nine rows of six characters. This panel is flanked by two strips of calico. The back of the item is either heavy silk or satin. We have two questions: (1) what is it - it is purely decorational or does/did it serve a particular purpose, and (2) what does the seal-script say? Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha?  (and Alice) 00:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The item is a table runner, a type of placemat common in both China and the West. The script is an old, stylized type of Chinese but I'm not able to translate (if, in fact, is isn't just pretty nonsense). DOR (HK) (talk) 02:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The script is called Seal script. It's not easy to read unless you've learned it specifically. I recognise some characters, but a lot of them are too difficult. Steewi (talk) 03:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

They're all variations of the same character 福, which has a range of meanings related to auspicious things and good fortune. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.207.54 (talk) 04:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The quality of being altruistic
Is there a word in English meaning "the quality or state of being altruistic", something like "altruisticness", or even "altruisticity"? Thanks, decltype (talk) 07:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think a person who holds altruism as a high value and regularly practises it is exhibiting, well, altruism, rather than any of the words you suggest. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The OED doesn't give any noun other than "altruism", which as JackofOz says, has the sense the questioner seeks; the OED defines it as "Devotion to the welfare of others, regard for others, as a principle of action; opposed to egoism or selfishness." Is there any reason the questioner thinks "altruism" isn't the right word? --Nigelpackham (talk) 11:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm reminded of a Rowan Atkinson sketch - a politician is giving a speech: "We must have purpose! We must not be purposeless!  We must not exhibit purposlessness!  We must be purposelessnessless!"  H W Fowler also condemns the sequence orient > orientation > orientated (as against oriented) > orientate (as against orient itself).  "Altruisticness" is a defensible English word, but there are few cases where "altruism" couldn't be used instead of it. Agglutination is the technical term for the general process, but I don't know if there's a specific term for the formation of new words by agglutination in a non-aggultinative language. Tevildo (talk) 19:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Here we have the word nesslessness used in a poem. (Australians may remember Tim and Debbie also using that word in one of their amaazing "Brain Space" radio episodes.) And here is a suggestion that words like rednesslessnessless and even longer concatenations could be constructed.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If my memory - and this article - is correct, "Brain Space" was on the TV, rather than (or at least before) radio. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:12, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Altruisticism" comes to mind, following the pattern of "mystic" and "mysticism". However, I checked my old Webster's, and that's not a word either. It defines "altruism" as "devotion to the interests of others" (it comes from French autrui, a variation on autre, from the Latin alter). Noah further defines "altruist" as "one who practices altruism"; "altruistic" as "pertaining to or given to altruism"; and "altruistically" as the corresponding adverb. "Selfless" is a synonym for "altruistic". For the "state of being", one is "selfless" or "altruistic". One exhibits "selflessness" or "altruism". As someone said earlier. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots← 06:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Unselfish, humane, and my favorite: philanthropic. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Yet another German question - (be)fragen
What's the difference between fragen und befragen? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Off the top of my head I would say it's the difference between asking and questioning (in the sense of surveys or interrogations, not in the sense of "doutbing", which would be "hinterfragen"). --80.123.210.172 (talk) 13:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I second that. Fragen refers to one question, and befragen to more than one, I think. --88.73.121.209 (talk) 15:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

German in sentences. The first contributor was right. fragen = to ask f.e. Michael asks for the way. (Michael fragt nach dem Weg) befragen = to question f.e. The detective questions the suspect. (Der Kriminalbeamte befragt den Verdächtigen) --93.128.173.155 (talk) 01:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

For fun only (macro-areal feature?)
This one just came to me off the top of my head--I'm only asking out of curiosity so don't feel obliged. I'm curious whether it's plausible that there's a macro-areal feature east of a certain longitude that causes Russian, Hindi, Chinese, Malay/Indonesian (I believe), and others, to lack an indefinite (and in most cases definite) article? --Dpr/71.111.194.50 (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's more interesting to put the question the other way round and wonder why some languages do have both indefinite and definite articles. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a map at Article (grammar) that may interest you. I'm not sure that indefinite articles are found only in European languages, but I think they are quite rare outside Europe. (World languages that originated in Europe, like English, French, and Spanish, are considered "European languages" for this purpose.) +Angr 19:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Angr. That map is quite interesting. I was thinking in geographic terms of the specific countries and didn't think to look there. By the way, nice analogy below vis-a-vis Francis and "Dutch" --Dpr/71.111.194.50 (talk) 21:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you from below (or down under in this case). :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 07:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Frances
What are the origins of the name Frances? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 20:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's from Italian Francesca, the feminine of Francesco, which was the nickname given to St. Francis of Assisi because his father did business in France. +Angr 20:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * A latter-day comparison would be calling someone "Dutch", and that then becoming widespread enough to become a standard name given to children whose parents did not necessarily have any associations with the Netherlands. There are a few examples of people being nicknamed "Dutch" (Dutch Schultz comes to mind, although his parents were German), but it hasn't become a common given name the way Francis has.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * A little off the track, but "Dutch" was a common synonym for "German" in the 19th century. Examples are the Pennsylvania Dutch, and public figures such as Honus "The Flying Dutchman" Wagner, and Casey Stengel, who was known as "Dutch" in his younger days. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you gentlemen. --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 12:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Japanese translation of martial arts title
What is the Japanese equivalent of the English martial arts title of "Supreme Grandmaster"? Thanks. --84.71.198.190 (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * They are usually called 最高師範/saikōshihan. Oda Mari (talk) 04:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)