Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 2

= October 2 =

Use of IPA for general purposes
A question regarding the International Phonetic Alphabet: has there ever been any serious advocacy for completely replacing an existing writing system with the IPA? For example, someone saying that we should be using it (or at least, the appropriate characters of it) in daily life to write the English language. What with attempts like the Shavian alphabet and so forth, I can't help thinking that somewhere, a believer in English spelling reform must have looked at the IPA and said: "why not?". Or for that matter, someone might want every language to use the IPA, so as to create a universal script that could be understood by all. If people believe in a universal language, after all, they might believe in a universal writing system.

And regardless of motives: if there have been attempts to promote IPA for general use, has anyone actually produced substantial chunks of written work using it? Written a book in it, for example, or transcribed a Shakespeare play? (I mean, someone seems to have done it for Klingon, after all...)

Please note that I'm not claiming that any of the above would be sensible, or for that matter, asking whether it would be sensible (I can see several problems already). I'm just wondering if anyone has had a go at it. -- 203.97.105.173 (talk) 12:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In answer to your second question, the phonetics journal Maître Phonétique was formerly written entirely in IPA, and other works with phoneticians as the primary intended audience may have been as well. +Angr 13:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is someone looking to use IPA from Wiktionary entries to transcribe Project Gutenberg texts. Nadando (talk) 00:11, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The issue of use of IPA for general purposes (or atleast the impotantance of it) has always been an issue for alomost all linguists (as they also hold various phonologocal theories).
 * The problem now as it is, for example, the word ‘cat’ does not represent its actual pronunciation of /kæt/ and then the question on whether such IPA transcription is still a palatalized dialect or is the formal English. These kinds of problems can however only get worse if a language has to be written in the IPA that is in the experimental stages (i.e. more arbitrariness than in the conventional graphemes as they are).
 * Another misconception in the linguistic literature is the classification of the orthography of a language whether it is based on alphabet or script or on the question about what distinguishes an orthography from alphabets and scripts. I think there are only few languages that are based on scripts and the rests are based on alphabets (but they can be of abugidas).
 * Are these correct?
 * Nevill Fernando (talk) 04:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but none of that makes any sense. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 05:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In West Africa I think there have been several languages without well established written forms (bible tracts & the like but not much history of literacy outside that), which may have gone through several orthographies (sometimes marketed by different Christian sects), where a later reformed orthography was based on the IPA. In Togo, for example, you have ɛ, ɔ, ŋ, ʃ, ɣ, and in some languages ʊ and ɩ, though still y for [j] and j for [dʒ], and maybe c for [tʃ]? I don't know much about the details. kwami (talk) 06:58, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

As a sidenote I'm looking seriously at IPA for Text to Speech representation at the moment; Wiktionary has a goodish %age of the words with IPA representation :) This is admittedly a horribly vexed subject though and I am already seeing the issues with IPA as a model. Sjc (talk) 13:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless your TTS project needs to handle multiple languages, i'd just stick with a phonemic alphabet instead of a phonetic one. That way you could avoid dealing with allophones and unused phones, among other things. Indeterminate (talk) 10:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It will inevitably need to handle multiple languages, which is precisely why I am pursuing the lines of inquiry and investigation that I am. Your point is well made though, and would indeed dramatically simplify and improve things if I was not looking for a multilingual implementation, although I may yet go down that road in the short term. Sjc (talk) 21:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all the replies. -- 203.97.105.173 (talk) 01:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

CV Objective
Hello there, I am writing an objective of my current CV. The job advertisement mentions that it is an agent of Faber-Castell Manufacturing company. At the bottom of page it states itself as rapidly growing organization and the position is written like, "Asst. Managers / Executives (Human Resources). So, I am bit confused in writing objective. I have prepared some precise objectives below:


 * Asst. Managers / Executives (Human Resources) position of an established company.


 * Asst. Managers / Executives (Human Resources) position of an established organisation.


 * Asst. Manager / Executive (Human Resources) position of an established company.


 * Asst. Manager / Executive (Human Resources) position of an established organisation.

Which one I should write in objective section? Thanks in advance--119.30.36.51 (talk) 12:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't follow. What do you mean by an "objective" in the context of your CV?  If you mean something like "the kind of job I want to work in", then that is really not something that you should be including in your CV.  A CV is a purely factual document which lays out your experience, education and qualifications.  Besides which, if those words you quote are in the job advert, then you really shouldn't be quoting the same words in your application.  It would just look like you're copying them because it's the kind of thing they are looking for, not because you're the right person for the job. --Richardrj talkemail 13:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * @Richardrj: it sounds like he's asking about a resume, rather than a CV.
 * @119.30.36.51: Richardrj is right that you should write out your objective in your own words, rather than just parroting the language of the advertisement. As for which wording to use... well, it shouldn't be in plural (ie, it shouldn't be "Executives) because you don't want to be more than one executive&mdash;you're just one person. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 14:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh? A resumé is the same thing as a CV. My point stands; you don't put career objectives on a resumé. --Richardrj talkemail 15:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In Europe, the terms are often used interchangeably, but there is a distinction (which I think is more common in the US): a CV is longer and is basically a record of everything, so you're more likely to have it just sitting around (for example, on your personal website), whereas a résumé you create specifically for a particular job application and is thus shorter, and more targeted, and often doesn't list as much (for example, not as much educational background, not as many past jobs, etc.). Often, academic positions care more about a CV and industrial positions care more about a résumé. And is is common on résumés to begin with a one-line objective (such as "to attain a job in bla bla bla..."). For instance, template resumes in Microsoft Word / OpenOffice / etc. sometimes include an "objective" field. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 15:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * @Rjanag: I understand the point. I previously mentioned this type objective in several resume and they were successful (got interview call but did not go due to personal reason). Should I only mention Asst. Manager or Executive (Human Resources) or both? What about organisation and company, which one I should pick?--119.30.36.34 (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Company is probably better, assuming that the place where you're applying is a company (it's always good to do your background research before submitting an application). As for assistant manager or executive, that depends on the circumstances of the application, the job offering, what you are applying for, etc. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 18:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The job offering was Asst. Managers/ Executives (Human Resources) (It was written in the advertisement). So my final objective for resume is:

--119.30.36.34 (talk) 19:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Asst. Manager / Executive (Human Resources) position of an established company (correct me if I am mistaken)
 * That's awfully vague. It would be better if you could write something in your own words. Just telling them that you want the job you're applying for doesn't give them much new information. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Even it's awfully vague I will use this statement as it is precise. But bit confused with Asst. Manager and Executive. Should I only write or or Thanks--119.30.36.34 (talk) 20:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Asst. Manager (Human Resources) position of an established company
 * Executive (Human Resources) position of an established company
 * Asst. Manager / Executive (Human Resources) position of an established company


 * That's up to you to choose. Wikipedia is not a career advice column and we can't write your resume for you. I think I've answered as much as I can. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 21:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not ask you to write my resume. I prepared it by myself but got stuck in some point and seek help from here. Of course, it's about nothing but language (grammar).--119.30.36.37 (talk) 08:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it's really about the terms used by that particular company. Why not research further?  Possibly "Executive Assitant Manager" if that is what they call the post?  Like other responders, I advise writing in your own words and doing some research.  It tells the employer that you are really interested in them and not just filling in forms at random.    D b f i r s   05:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I need help writing a romantic letter - a clever one
My bf and I are having problems and we are arguing a lot. I want to tell him that I want to work things out and start all over again and fall in love again. There are so many things going wrong in his life like family and work. Every time I try to help him or give him words of wisdom and support, he just get frustrated and negative and says that I just don't understand. I am not good with words.

I need help writing a letter to him explaining to him how much I love him and support him still but I am HORRIBLE with this. Please help me type the perfect love letter! I am desperate for all you experienced writers out there! Maybe even give me an example of a famous writer --Reticuli88 (talk) 13:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Abelard and Heloise. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say don't try to be too clever and take lots of suggestions. Something coming from you will mean more than the cleverest copied prose. Why not just say that you find it difficult to write, and then basically put what you wrote here, but directed to him. That kind of writing from the heart really tells; when I read what you say I know you mean it, and I'm sure he will too. I hope everything works out for you both. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:04, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I am a serious writer. I could probably put together some witty, poignant little thing for you and get it done before lunch. But I won't. Because something honest and heartfelt that truly comes from you will get the job done much more effectively. I felt your sincerity in the simple, true words you poured out asking for help, not trying to be clever or pull any fancy verbal maneuvers. I was deeply moved, not because you committed some marvel of eloquence but because you spoke from a place of love and need, and so I understood with that part of me that's been there myself. That's the part of your boyfriend that you want to touch - you're not trying to tickle his intellect. Be yourself. Be vulnerable - if he's vulnerable right now, he's probably not in a mood to be dazzled by your cleverness anyway. He wants to know you can meet him where it hurts so you can go on together, in the awkward and imperfect way we humans have, making your way through life. Give yourself some time to be alone with your feelings and organize your thoughts, and the words will come. Don't be afraid to revise. Best wishes to you both. - AJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.238.248 (talk) 15:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Please give me something, anything! --Reticuli88 (talk) 16:22, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This sounds like Cyrano de Bergerac... ;)
 * But in all seriousness, Reticuli, Q Chris' advice is good... instead of trying to impress him with your good prose, just explain how you feel and remind him that you care. If he thinks you don't understand his problems and gets frustrated when you say you do....well, then don't claim to understand them, but say that you sympathize at least. There's not much more we can say; we don't know what your feelings are or what the history of your relationship was like.
 * Wikipedia is not really a relationships advice column so if that's what you are looking for you should try another site. We'll try to answer your question without being bitey, but you shouldn't rely too heavily on Wikipedia for relationship advice. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 20:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm reminded more of a movie, possibly set in Cuba, in which the lovers use the same ghostwriter in the marketplace. —Tamfang (talk) 06:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Requesting translation from a Cyrillic-alphabet language, almost certainly Russian
What does Зелёный mean? "Green"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.238.248 (talk) 15:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it means "green", and yes, it's Russian. +Angr 16:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. (Sigh - I was hoping it meant "plumb-bob," don't ask why.) I should have asked in the first place, how on earth do you pronounce it? I can sound out Cyrillic some of the time, especially if I have some idea what I'm looking at in the first place, but with this one I don't know where to begin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.238.248 (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * According to зелёный, it's pronounced . If you're not IPA-compliant, it can be roughly approximated with "zill-YOH-nee". +Angr 09:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Geico gekko
I just saw the new GEICO commercial. Based on his accent, where would you say, to the best of your ability, the GEICO Gecko is from?

If you say something vague like Europe I'll punch you in the proxy.HitmanNumber86 (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard the ad in a while, but I think it's the UK (English accent)...the question is what part of the UK since there are many variations. If memory serves I don't think it's Australia/New Zealand. --68.175.44.30 (talk) 16:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds pretty cockney (=London) to me. --Pykk (talk) 17:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * GEICO ad campaigns. -- LarryMac  | Talk  17:11, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess that makes him Scottish/English. I thought I heard something Scottish. But what part of England? Someone should recognize his accent. If you've seen the new commercial, they portray a typical American (sadly, it's quite accurate for many) assuming his accent makes him a posh British snob, whilst the woman say's, "I thought you were Australian." The Gecko him self gets cutoff saying, "It's funny you should bring that up. Actually I'm-" and he get cutoff by the slogan. --HitmanNumber86 (talk) 17:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ugh...really? Well I guess that's not surprising. It's a wonder they didn't have to subtitle the gecko for Americans. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I did. It's cockney. The article says it's cockney. If this is the accent you mean, then it's cockney. Which would be rather un-snobby in reality, being a working-class accent that's historically been very looked-down upon in the UK. --Pykk (talk) 18:09, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Americans on the whole probably haven't learned the differences between posh and non-posh (U and non-U?) British accents. . . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.44.30 (talk) 21:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Notice how the gecko rounds off his L's. There was a question here about that, not long ago. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * What I notice is the th-fronting in "He's like a bruvver to me". Nevertheless, it sounds to me like a rather tame version Cockney – could it be rather Estuary English than the broadest type of Cockney? +Angr 08:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The Geico Gecko may be a Londoner, but his ancestors were from Madagascar. Just because that's where most geckos are from.


 * As I recall, the early version of the Gecko spoke with a more "sophisticated" British accent and was not actually working for Geico, he was one who kept getting wrong number calls: "Not 'Geico', Gecko!". Then he became an employee, and was shown arriving in a miniature car and parking in the human-sized "empoyee of the month" space. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:46, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's an early gecko commercial. I don't think this is cockney: →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 06:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. +Angr 08:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems like a "normal" British accent, but perhaps a Henry Higgins-like expert here could pin it down. (If they could pin down which voice actors are doing the various geckos, that would be even better.) →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the Wiki article, the first ones (gecko/GEICO) were voiced by Kelsey Grammer. He's born in the US Virgin Islands :P 80.123.210.172 (talk) 11:24, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * According to IMDb the current voice belongs to Jake Wood. (In fact, it says as much on his Wiki page.) He is from London. Martlet1215 (talk) 12:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To complicate matters, the article and Ray Park both say that the current voice is Ray Park. Not many verifiable sources though. Martlet1215 (talk) 12:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

is there a verb tense (in any language) that does all three of these at the same time?
Consider the following:


 * I was here.
 * I am here.
 * I will be here.

Is there any known language that allows the speaker to say:


 * I (was/am/will be) here.

Where the (was/am/will be) is all conflated into a single word? dr.ef.tymac (talk) 18:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I am told that in Haitian Creole, there are no tense forms in the verbs. According to Haitian Creole tenses are represented with "tense markers".  Note that in English, you can kind of use the same form for the present and for the future.  "I walk to the store today.  Tomorrow I walk to Canada," but it doesn't work in the past tense: "Yesterday I walk to the theatre."  Hope this helps, Falconus p  t   c 18:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * What about "So, yesterday, right? I walk to the theatre, and guess who I bump into....."? The present simple can be used for all three. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 19:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Walk and bump are both examples of the Historical present - present tense used to denote past events. Guess is an imperative, which is grammatically tenseless.  If the listener did indeed guess (rather than regarding this command as a rhetorical device), that would happen after this sentence was spoken, but that doesn't make "guess" future tense.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Jack, when I said 'all three' I meant all three tenses the OP was enquiring about, not all three verbs in my example sentence. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 22:00, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Kage Tora, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying the present can be used to denote all three tenses, in different contexts?  I agree with that.  But Dreftymac was asking about a verb that means all three tenses simultaneously.  I'm not sure what your example was meant to be illustrating.   --  JackofOz (talk) 22:09, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought (as does everyone else here) that the question was whether the present can be used to denote all three tenses, in different contexts, as you ask, and that was what my answer to the OP's question was meant to affirm, and written as a continuation of the previous answer written just above it. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm with you now. Thanks.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure for the copula itself, but Chinese has no tense markers per se. Tense, if needed, can be conveyed with time adverbs like "tomorrow" or "yesterday" or a few free morphemes that express concepts like completedness. I would imagine you'd find a lot of similar patterns among the world's isolating languages.--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 20:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, Chinese 我在这里 can mean all three of them if it's not in any context (although, to be fair, I can't picture that ever coming up in natural speech). There are many other languages that lack overt tense marking and thus would be the same. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 20:44, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, I believe American Sign Language has no tense marking. <b class="Unicode">r ʨ anaɢ</b> talk/contribs 21:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * When I read the OP's question, it seems to me that the requested meaning is along the lines of "I am, was, and will continue to be here." Not some form that can mean any one of the three, but a form that conveys all three meanings at once.–RHolton ≡ – 03:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the answer to that would be the Present perfect continuous: 'I have been [living] here for [XX] years'. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2009 (UTC)