Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 29

= October 29 =

"Cntr + Alt + Del situation"
Is "Cntr + Alt + Del" also used as idiom or something like that? I have recent found in a magazine a term called "Cntr + Alt + Del situation". What is the meaning of "Cntr + Alt + Del situation"? --Waterrocket (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * On Windows PCs, Ctrl+Alt+Del is the combination of keystrokes you use to get out of the (frequent) situation when a piece of software hangs up on you and won't respond. So I guess it could be used in a metaphorical sense to mean a situation where you're not getting anywhere and need to get out of it, or something like that. --Richardrj talkemail 06:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We have an article on it. F (talk) 09:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have found the ref. Here it is . The paragraph is:

''Indian firms expanded capacity, market footprint, acquired firms in high-cost regimes, increased exports as a component of the sales and profit, salaries and wages rocketed and there was an opportunity for every stakeholder at seemingly no risk. All and sundry began to think of themselves as world-beaters. Now that they have been beaten by the world it is time to reset the approach to avoid a Ctrl-Alt-Del situation.''

What does "Now that they have been beaten by the world it is time to reset the approach to avoid a Ctrl-Alt-Del situation" mean here? --Waterrocket (talk) 11:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suppose it means "to avoid having to scrap everything and start over again from scratch". +Angr 11:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ctrl-Alt-Delete (on Dos/Windows at least) is a soft reboot. Given that the term reboot has now been applied to a number of non-computer contexts to metaphorically refer to "starting anew", that interpretation is likely correct. -- 128.104.112.149 (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Short latin phrase
How would one say "I still believe [an idea]" in Latin? Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 06:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

credo, i believe (!?) is the verb. the conjugation i forget —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slimeylimey09 (talk • contribs) 07:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Credo is correct for "I believe". For "still", it depends whether you mean "I continue to believe in spite of opposition; I believe nevertheless" or "I started believing in the past and continue to believe now". The former is Tamen credo; the latter is Adhuc credo or more emphatically Etiam credo. +Angr 07:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Tamen is I believe normally placed second in the sentence, so Credo tamen might be a better order. --rossb (talk)
 * Hmm, my Latin grammar says it is "often postpositive", which suggests that at least as often, it isn't. +Angr 07:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought postpositive meant that it was second in the sentence? Falconus p t   c 11:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It does; my point is that my grammar books says tamen is only often postpositive, not always postpositive. +Angr 11:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Lofty Latin
"Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur" or "Quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur." Which is correct, or are both wrong? SDY (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Videtur. +Angr 10:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I originally learned it the other way, started seeing variants, and wasn't real sure.  SDY (talk) 11:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This goes beyond what was originally asked, but what is the source of this quotation? Surely not Classical, with its odd mix of moods (should be either sit ... videatur or, better, est ... videtur), and the fact that 'dictum sit' is used instead of 'dicitur' or 'dicatur'?Maid Marion (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the mix of moods is a problem, it's "whatever may be said (subjunctive) in Latin seems (indicative) lofty". But you're right about dictum sit rather than dicatur, and I have my doubts about altum meaning lofty in the metaphorical sense. +Angr 16:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have any reference books by me, but altum 'feels' fine to me in the sense of lofty or elevated. However, despite the title of the original question, I don't think that is what it is intended to mean in this strange quotation - I would guess that whoever cobbled these words together probably intended 'profound'. Maid Marion (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've always heard it translated as "profound". --Tango (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The Oxford Latin Dictionary includes among the definitions of altus: "Rising above the common level, high, elevated, noble" and "Of deep wisdom, penetrating, profound". So that part's okay. And if we translate it "Whatever has been said in Latin" rather than "Whatever is said", then the tense of dictum sit is okay too. +Angr 19:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * FWLIW: A cursory Google search for all but the last word leads to a recent rash of unsourced blog entries, but also a BBC citation (probably word-play) as: "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. Or 'Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.' " http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A218882 —— Shakescene (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I mostly tend to translate "altum" as lofty since that's the way the root is used in English (q.v. altitude), whereas "profound" usually implies metaphorical depth. The entire point of the statement is that dropping these random pithy sayings of Latin tends to be done for fairly shallow reasons, so saying that it sounds profound may be misleading. The statement (obviously) isn't mine, so who knows what the originator was thinking. SDY (talk) 00:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it came from Erasmus, but I have no evidence for that. (Nor does Google.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ in the Piedmontese language
So our article on the Piedmontese language states:

''Some of the most relevant characteristics of the Piedmontese language are: [...] 6. The absence of the voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ (as in sheep), for which an alveolar S sound (as in sun) is usually substituted. [...] ''

Whereas our article on the Lamborghini Countach says that "countach" is pronounced [kunˈtɑʃ] in the Piedmontese language (note the presence of the /ʃ/ sound). So, where's the error? Thanks! --Belchman (talk) 15:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know the etymology of "countach", but perhaps what the first article is trying to say is that where /S/ occurs in Italian (where it mostly comes from /sk/ + front vowel in Latin), Piedmontese has /s/ (e.g. the word for "science" starts with /S/ in Italian but - if my hypothesis is correct - /s/ in Piedmontese); Piedmontese might still have /S/ from other sources (such as loanwords from French?). +Angr 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess you're right. Thanks. --Belchman (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

is Piedmont not Italian, and sheep and sun English words? how can you make a comparison in their pronunciation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.0.125 (talk) 18:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The consonants are the same, that's how. Marco polo (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As the phonations of Latin alphabet also slightly differ in languages, i think we have to see the IPA of the language first in order to know whether the phonetic transcription is correct. However, this alone cannot solve the problems.
 * For example, names like Holstein and Rothstein represent as /hɔlʃtain/ and /rɒθstain/ in the IPA accordingly, though the IPA /ʃ/ is the phoneme of ‘sh’ in the phonetic transcription. However, as to their environment, the IPA of both cases seem correct, i.e. the grapheme ‘s’ follows a back vowel and possibly a dark ‘l’ on the first case whereas the latter is an interdental fricatives.
 * That is, depending on the environment, a substitution of /s/ for voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ or vise versa is possible. On the transcription of /ʃ/ in [kunˈtɑʃ], it does not seem correct as to its environment (an affricatives?). Nevill Fernando (talk) 02:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Where do you get those transcriptions for 'Holstein' and 'Rothstein'. Since you write 'θ', you are presumably referring to the English pronunciations rather than German ones: I would say that 's' and 'ʃ' are in variation in English for both those words, depending partly on how familiar the speaker is with German. --ColinFine (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Ares I-X
How is "Ares I-X" pronounced? I don't watch TV and the radio hasn't mentioned the flight yet, so I haven't heard it spoken. Is it "air-eez i eks"? No IPA, please. Dismas |(talk) 17:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I would pronounce it "Ares One Eks". --Tango (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's how I've been pronouncing it in my head but if I get into a conversation about it, I'd rather not sound silly by using some other pronunciation when the other person has probably heard it in the news broadcasts. So, how do they say it on the news?  Dismas |(talk) 19:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You can probably find out by listening to "America's Rockets (SD Podcast)" at feed://streaming.msfc.nasa.gov/podcast/ares/ARES_SD.xml.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 19:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, it's "Ah-rees", not "Air-rees" - it's from the Greek name for Mars, not from the constellation. Grutness...wha?  21:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I for one have always pronounced the Greek god's name as "Air-ease", never "R-ease". +Angr 22:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Ah-rees" is probably technically correct, but "air-eez" would be the typical American pronunciation, at least. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Our article, Ares, says that in Modern Greek it is pronounced [ˈaris], that is a short 'a' (as in cat) and the 's' isn't voiced (ie. it's an 's' sound not a 'z' sound). That is nothing like how I would have pronounced it (which would have been roughly the same as the constellation), but we live and learn! --Tango (talk) 01:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason to follow the Modern Greek pronunciation...the name "Ares" was probably imported into English (or at least intermediate languages like Latin) before Modern Greek as it exists now was around anyway. Going by the Ancient Greek pronunciation makes a little more sense, but I feel like a word like "Ares" has been around long enough in English that the standard English pronunciation can be considered "correct." -Elmer Clark (talk) 05:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * How would one distinguish between Ares and Aries (the Ram/constellation/astronomical/astrological term)? --  JackofOz (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * By spelling them out: They're normally homonyms. Though in conservative RP, "Aries" has three syllables ("-i-eez"). (And yes, "Ares" as the god of war has long been assimilated into English.) kwami (talk) 10:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is all intriguing, and possibly another case of US English being different from the rest of the world's. I asked my partner (an astrophysics grad) how "Ares" was pronounced, and she said that she'd 'rarely heard anyone call it anything other than "Ah-rees", though some US sources use "Air-rees"'. She also pointed out that the star name Antares is frequently (but not universally, if you'll pardon the accidental pun) given the same pronunciation ("An-tah-rees") because the star's name means "opposed to Mars" Grutness...wha?  04:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * For this and probably most "how do you pronounce this?" questions, one site I have found to be useful is http://howjsay.com/ . Make sure your computer has speakers. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My old Webster's (ca. 1960) gives the preferred with the "a" rhyming with the a in "ale", and the secondary as the "a" rhyming with the a in "care", which makes things interesting given that east coasters stretch that particular "a" out a bit while midwesterners would make it sound like a short "e". One thing I was suprised is that I thought "Aries", the ram, was a homophone. But my old book says it's "A-ri-ez", and incidentally with the same two alternative pronunciations fo the "a" as with "Ares". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the original pronunciation of Aries had 3 syllables, but I've never heard anyone give it more than 2. --  JackofOz (talk) 01:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The audio recording at http://ia331428.us.archive.org/0/items/AresQuarterlyProgressReport7/QPR7_512kb.mp4 (about 5 minutes 15 seconds)
 * uses the pronunciation [ˈɛriz wʌn ɛks] at about 0:55 and at about 2:10. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Kara
my wife has asked this question. she would like to know the correct pronunciation of her name Kara, in both Gaelic and English. her ancestry is American Irish, as in Kara Kennedy as in the daughter of the late Ted Kennedy( not a blood-line but similar nationality). In England invariably pronounced as in car-rah, but in America car(rot)a(spoken soft and shortly). the name has various origins including Russian and Vietanmese. what would be the Gaelic? though i will always call her by what she knows and what i've learned to say. thanks--Slimeylimey09 (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cara in Irish Gaelic means "friend" but as far as I know it's never used as a name. It's a masculine noun anyway, so it definitely has nothing to do with the woman's name Kara. The "a" is pronounced about halfway between the "a" of "car" and the "a" of "cat". +Angr 19:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought of former actress Cara Williams, although that was a stage name. In any case, she pronounced it "care-uh". "caa-ruh" would be more like the east coast pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Kara in some Slavic languages means "black". There was the Karageorge dynasty in Yugoslavia.  That was pronounced "kah-rah". --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that those Slavic languages don't actually use it, and in compounds it was borrowed from... see tr:Kara. No such user (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A possible endonym is /Kɶrə/ or /Kaːrə/.
 * Alternatives are: /Kaːraː/ or /Kɶraː/. Is this correct? --Mihkaw napéw (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

in latin cara means dear one. Kara is also a derivative of Catherine. In Vietnamese Kara means friend. The accent is from New Jersey on the East Coast of the U.S.--91.125.80.207 (talk) 06:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In what universe is kara, rather than bạn, the Vietnamese word for "friend"? 92.226.37.208 (talk) 07:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

In a parallel universe you don't live in. It's just the meaning not the actual word for. As my toddler would say "Bleh"--91.125.80.207 (talk) 07:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC) Kara

First name origins & meanings:

Latin: Dear Irish: Friend Italian: Beloved one Vietnamese: Precious Diamond or Dear Friend Greek: Pure Greek: Pure First name variations: Carah, Caralie, Careen, Canna, Carine, Carita, Carra, Karra, Caragh, Caera, Cara, Karan, Karen, Karyn, Kasia, Katja, Kasen, Kassia, Katoka, Katrien, Kaysa, Katarina, Katharine, Kate, Kathryn, Kathreen, Katheryn, Katrin, Kathy, Katie, Kate, Katina, Katrina, Karen, Karin, Karyn, Karan, Karon, Kari, Karrie, Karry, Karina, Caren, Carin, Caryn, Cari, Carrie, Carry, Cara, Katherine

Last name origins & meanings:

Indian (Gujarat): Hindu (Bhatia) name of unknown meaning. Polish: nickname from karać ‘to punish’. Czech, Slovak, and Hungarian: from a pet form of a personal name: Czech Karel, Slovak Karol, Hungarian Károly, vernacular forms of Carolus (see Charles). Czech: metonymic occupational name for a carter, from kára ‘hand cart’. Greek: see Caras. --Cookie8590 (talk) 08:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you get that from a first-name etymology or baby-name book (or website)? They always seem to copy each other's lists without attribution, and egregious errors are repeated as fact. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As for Slavic languages, in Polish kara has several meanings. One is "punishment". Another is the feminine form of the adjective "black" but only in reference to a horse. It might be also the plural of karo, or diamonds (a suit of cards). It is never used as a personal name though. The only person of this name I ever heard of was the Turkish army general, Kara Mustafa. — Kpalion(talk) 18:15, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I wonder if your wife predates the 1971 hit record "Kara, Kara" by Australian pop group New World. That was certainly pronounced "car-rah". Lyrics here. Sorry - impudent question - a lady never tells! Interestingly, there was a small Australian warship called HMAS Kara Kara in WW2. Perhaps it's a place name? Alansplodge (talk) 02:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The things one reads on the Ref Desk. Yes, it was a place name - see County of Kara Kara, Shire of Kara Kara and Electoral district of Kara Kara and Borung.  "Kara Kara" apparently means Gold Quartz in the local indigenous language.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there even such a word as "kara" in Vietnamese? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks but no one here really answered my question. I really could care less as to whether my name exists in Vietnamese or Polish. It is a name and whether or not it is a word in a specific language doesn't mean that someone from that country can't name a child by it. I actually got more information from those so called Baby Names websites when I did my own research. Geesh, and you call yourselves linguists. LOL! --80.189.132.211 (talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * That deserves a comeback. You partly answered your own question in your question itself.  It's usually pronounced a certain way in England, and a different way in the USA.  That shows that there is no one "correct" way to pronounce it in "English", because "English" means different things to different people.  And when it comes to personal names, how the owner of a name pronounces it themself is ipso facto the correct way to pronounce their name, regardless of how other people with the same name pronounce theirs.  Angr's answer, the very first one, was about the best you're going to get about the Gaelic pronunciation.  We're all volunteers here, and not necessarily professional linguists, just people with a passion for language and some reasonable amounts of knowledge, which we're more than happy to share.  We have never claimed to be experts.  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)