Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 7

= October 7 =

The missing Arlésienne
I learned today that the term "Arlésienne" is used in French to refer to a person who is expected to be in a certain place at a certain time, but fails to show up. Is it only ever used in the feminine form, whether the person is female or male? Is the A always capitalised, or does it appear as arlésienne/arlésien? Do other languages have such a lovely and useful term for such a person? Would it be reasonable to use this French word in English with this meaning, and expect people generally to know what it means? I mean, I'd love to use it somewhere, but definitely not if I have to immediately explain what I'm talking about. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In response to your question of would it be reasonable to use this word in an English context, unfortunately I think you answered your own question when you stated in the first sentence, "I learned today that the term...." In other words, you yourself discovered this by chance from a book or other source -- and most likely people reading or hearing the word will not know it either. There are almost surely no statistics, but there are probably not a lot of English speaking people who know that word. But you can do a google search for English websites to get a better sense of that. Bottom line, most people probably dont know it, so do not use it without a gloss, unless you are confident that your particular audience (e.g. French literature enthusiasts in Australia or Irish teachers of French etc.) know the word. --71.111.194.50 (talk) 09:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In French an inhabitant of Arles is un Arlésien/une Arlésienne, A is capitalised. The adjective is arlésien(s)/arlésienne(s) with a small a. The stock phrases are either jouer l'Arlésienne or C'est l'Arlésienne. The phrases apply for both male and female persons and things. They refer to any person or thing which, although much talked about, never materializes. — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Capitalizing the "a" is unnecessary.
 * It depends on the reference and how pedantic you are! There is no mention of arlésienne(s) as a common noun in the Dictionnaire de l'Académie française (9e éd.), neither in the Trésor de la langue française informatisé . No entry as a common noun in Le petit Robert (1986), but there is one in Le petit Robert (2004); For Le petit Larousse illustré (2004) see hereunder''. — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Harrap's Standard French and English Dictionary (2 large volumes, London, 1934) gives only the uncapitalized geographical meaning of arlésien, -ienne without reference to the figurative or literary meaning. The Larousse Modern French-English Dictionary (one medium volume, McGraw-Hill, New York, 1960) has no entry for Arles, arlésien or arlésienne. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In response to your question: Do other languages have such a lovely and useful term for such a person? I think that English itself has a related term: "être l'arlésienne" is "to stand (people) up" (however, note that the more common phrase is: "c’est l’arlésienne", and that it may refer to inanimate objects as well). The verb "to stand (people) up" must have both adjectives and nouns (some of which I know) - in other languages (probably many languages). HOOTmag (talk) 11:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say the English term for "a person who is expected to be in a certain place at a certain time, but fails to show up" is a flake. Pais (talk) 11:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A flake is simply an impractical - or an unreliable - person, generally. HOOTmag (talk) 12:01, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The English term I know best is no-show. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a useful term, but not a particularly lovely one. --  JackofOz (talk) 13:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * What about Godot, as in Waiting for Godot? I seem to recall it being used in an "Arlésienne" way. BTW, "Arlésienne" is often used for events, concepts, etc that always seem to be about to come about but never do..."L'union des partis de gauche, cette éternelle arlésienne de la vie politique"= The union of left-wing parties, that ever-receding horizon of politics. Rhinoracer (talk) 13:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Here's an interesting discussion of Arlésiennes, Godots, Rebeccas, Kayser Sozes and their ilk.  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:05, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

¶ The dictionary part of my 2004 Petit Larousse Illustré gives this figurative or secondary meaning of L' Arlésienne, feminine noun (after the straight use of arlésien, -ienne to describe things or people from Arles)"personne dont on parle tout le temps et qu'on ne voit jamais (par allusion à l'opéra de Bizet où ce personnage ne paraît pas sur la scène.)"roughly, "someone about whom one talks all the time yet never sees (by allusion to the Bizet's opera where this [title] character does not appear on stage.)" So the parallel to Godot (or to George Spelvin) seems pretty close, and the derivative sense of a perpetual latecomer or absentee tertiary. ¶ And to answer Jack's other questions, L'Arlésienne is capitalized and treated grammatically as a feminine proper noun by Larousse, because L'Arlésienne is both the title and the title character. But I wouldn't use this in English conversation, since this is the first time most of us (including me) have ever encountered it in this sense, although I did dimly recall L'Arlésienne as a painting from around the Impressionist era (it was by Van Gogh). Cf. L'Arlésienne (Bizet) and L'Arlésienne (novel and play), from which I arrogantly and hastily conclude that Larousse might have better cited Daudet's novel and play than Bizet's opera. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:35, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * However, I was moved to look up the Petit Larousse en couleurs (1980), and find the dictionary part gives only the geographical, but not the figurative, meaning of arlésien. The cyclopaedia part gives a brief mention of Daudet's story and Bizet's opera, without discussing the plot, theme or characters. But the corresponding part of my 2004 Petit Larousse Illustré gives a one-sentence synopsis of the plot, from which one might possibly infer the secondary meaning without looking at the dictionary section:"Amoureux d'une Arlésienne – qu'on ne voit jamais sur scène – dont on lui apprend l'infidélité, un jeune paysan de Camargue perd la raison et se suicide." which I translate (rather shakily) as: "In love with an Arlesian – whom one never sees on stage – about whose infidelity he is told, a young peasant of the Camargue loses his reason and kills himself." (corrections very gladly welcomed) —— Shakescene (talk) 08:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, thank you all for your most enlightening posts. As for using it myself, I'll reserve it for a special occasion. But I did find it in the article I linked in my question, and I assume that if something's mentioned in Wikipedia, it's *obviously* going to be well known before long (perhaps not part of the lingua franca (pun) in the sense of an expression one hears every day, but still ...). :) -- JackofOz (talk) 20:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A good parallel from English literature is "Mrs Harris" from Martin Chuzzlewit; one would have to be sure of one's audience before expecting this name to be understood, though. Tevildo (talk) 19:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's a good parallel, but doesn't seem to have entered the language as a standard expression the way Arlésienne has in French.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Slang word for "understand" with sci-fi origin
I'm trying to remember a slang word meaning "grasp, understand, comprehend" whose origin was in a science fiction story. I think in the original story it meant something like "completely absorb and assimilate". I think the slang word was popular on college campuses in the U.S. in the '60s and '70s, but that was before my time. My first thought was grep, but that means something else. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Pais (talk) 11:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Grok? --130.237.179.182 (talk) 11:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's the one, thanks! Pais (talk) 11:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The term is still used at Curtin University in Perth, Australia. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Learning an African language for "fun"
Essentially just for fun, I'm interested in learning an African language. I've found decent-looking resources for Zulu, Xhosa and Swahili... what do people recommend? Either on the basis of most fun, easiest, most elegant: whatever, any views or thoughts at all? ╟─TreasuryTag►co-prince─╢ 18:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I assume you mean south of Arabic? Of the ones you list, I think Xhosa would be the most fun; Zulu not far behind if you have better material. But the clicks are far from easy: you'd have to have sound recordings, and better yet a speaker. Swahili would be much easier, and can be done without sound recordings. Wolof, Yoruba, Akan, and Amharic are also available, and would be very different from the three Bantu languages you listed, though Yoruba and Akan have tone, so again sound recordings or a speaker would be needed. Amharic might be fun in you like dabbling in scripts. kwami (talk) 19:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * My brother thought at one time that he might be working in Ethiopia so he studied Amharic and told me that the complex alphabet was hard to master. He thought people should be less ready to condemn low literacy rates considering the difficulties Ethiopian schoolchildren would have learning that alphabet. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Arthur C. Clarke called Afrikaans the 'best swearing language' in the world. And because it's genetically related to Dutch (which in turn is closely related to English) it would probably be easy to learn. Although, of course, not as "African" as those others. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Fun" is very subjective. Personally, I found Swahili to be really enjoyable.  I think that it is easy for English speakers because the grammar is relatively simple.  The verbs, to my mind, have a logic somewhat similar to that of English verbs.  I find the structure elegant.  It is fun to be able to make rapid progress in a language unrelated to English.  I'm not sure progress would be as rapid in Xhosa or Zulu.  The pronunciation of the clicks might be challenging.  Marco polo (talk) 19:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If you've got a lead on studying Zulu, that'd be my choice for at least one reason not mentioned above: enhancing access to the vocals of Ladysmith Black Mambazo (familiar to many from Paul Simon's album Graceland), Johnny Clegg, and other recent and contemporary music originating in Southern Africa. The printed lyrics that accompany the discs will give you an idea...and perhaps whet your appetite. -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:47, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

words translated to Spanish
How are foghorn and ghost said in Spanish?69.203.157.50 (talk) 21:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the University of Chicago Spanish Dictionary, "foghorn" is sirena and "ghost" is espectro or fantasma. Deor (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sirena is more general (=siren, in both senses) though. "Sirena de niebla" can be used if you want to be specific. --Pykk (talk) 16:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Literally "siren of fog". "Fog" is from a Scandinavian term. "Horn" is from Latin "cornu" but the Spanish "siren" as actually more descriptive. Ironically, "siren" comes from the Greek for the maids that would lure sailors to crash on the rocks. "Niebla" comes from the Latin root from which we get the word "nebula". "Fantasma" would be from the Greek "phantasm". "Ghost" comes from the same root as the German "Geist". →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * At Wiktionary, the entries Foghorn and Ghost should have some kind of translation. Here though, the es. equivalent of ghost is es:Fantasma. Unfortunately, es.wiki does not yet have an article on foghorn. Create it!  Intelligent  sium  review 01:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)