Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 September 13

= September 13 =

Aibrushed vs. Photoshopped
Do people other than newspaper/magazine industry people say 'airbrushed' or has 'photoshopped' completely taken over? Also, what is the origin of the word 'airbrushed' anyway? What is an 'airbrush'? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 00:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * See Airbrush and Airbrush. I'm old enough to have seen them in use on photographs before digital manipulation became possible, and I imagine airbrushing still has its uses in dealing with photographic prints. Deor (talk) 00:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Crossword puzzler
As some of you will know, some of the clues in the New York Times Saturday crossword have a common theme, which in last week's case was titled "Literally So". For example, one of the clues was W--THL-SS R-AD-TER. The missing letters spell oreos, so the answer was "lemon drop cookies". FI-TH WH--L leads to "spare no expense". The one that puzzles me is WHAT A -ANDA DOES IN -EIS-RELY FA-HION. The solution is supposedly "eats shoots and leaves", but I don't see the connection to the omitted "plus". Clarityfiend (talk) 00:55, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * See http://wordplay.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/literally-so/?pagemode=print Nanonic (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Plus" = "and" eh? Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's actually based on an old joke ("A panda walks into a bar"...) which was the inspiration for the title of the grammar book Eats, Shoots & Leaves... AnonMoos (talk) 04:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

"marriage" -- "fatherhood" -- "has a career"
Marriage & fatherhood both describe a state of being. Can anyone think of a word for "has a career" ? The best I can come up with is employment, but it doesn't quite fit. You could be employed as a ditch-digger, but one would hardly call that a career... Thank you. 61.189.63.208 (talk) 02:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Married" is probably more accurate than "marriage". The former is a state of being (including of one person, although necessarily requiring that at least one other person also be in that state), the latter is the relationship/union between two people. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether it's a "state of being" or not is not really the point of the OP's inquiry. I think "employment" is the closest to what you're looking for, though because this doesn't distinguish between a job and a career, some sort of modifier like "lifetime employment" will probably have to suffice.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]
 * I don't know about a noun, but "established" and similar adjectives used to have the connotation of being well-launched in business or the professions, as in "I shan't be able to marry Cyril until he's better established". There are better words, but I can't think of them at the moment. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree. "Married" is an adjective, "marriage" is a state of being - a state is a noun, it has to be. --Tango (talk) 19:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The term "profession" is normally used for types of employment requiring a degree or complex skills. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The more general term is "occupation", but we don't talk of people being "occupied". --  JackofOz (talk) 21:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * @Tango: a state is an adjective. Mitch Ames is correct: "married" describes your state of being ("I am married"), whereas "marriage" describes the relationship ("their marriage is on the rocks"). r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 21:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * See, I was going to say that at first, but then I thought about it and decided that I agree with Tango. Being married means that you are in the state of marriage. Adjectives like "married" don't indicate the abstract state itself, they indicate that the noun they modify is in that state, which makes it self-evident that the word for the state, divorced from any individual noun, cannot be an adjective. (Definitions: marriage married) It's a pretty fine distinction, though. Indeterminate (talk) 06:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Successful' is tantamount to 'has a career' in contemporary parlance. Vranak (talk) 18:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

"be said"
How about the grammar of the following sentences:
 * "There is, be said, a convenient pleasant weather in South Italy".
 * "I agree with what is be said here".

HOOTmag (talk) 08:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Both look weird, and the second just looks plain wrong. However, in speech, I think "be said" can be shorthand for "let it be said". Perhaps, long, long ago, there was a verb "besay" as there is a verb "bespeak" (as in bespoke tailors), but I've never run into it. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I hope I don't embarrass you, but look at what you yourself have written, here, on 10 September, at 23:25! HOOTmag (talk) 09:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Shakescene's message was probably just a typo&mdash;it's normal on Wikipedia for someone to write out a message, then go back and change it before posting it, but forget to change some of the grammar along with it. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 11:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "...has often BEEN said" would make more sense in that sentence you cite. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The original sentence has been: "IS often BE said", so if you wanted to fix it you had to capitalize two words: "HAS often BEEN said". Are you sure the writer has been wrong twice? HOOTmag (talk) 09:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Both your query phrase "what is be said here" and Shakescene's booboo "which is often be said by..." can be corrected by dropping be. —Tamfang (talk) 00:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What the heck is "a convenient weather"? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Must be a Britishism. Never heard it in the USA. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's just a solecism. I've never encountered it, and it's not in the OED. Algebraist 11:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The sentence might have been written by a horny, illiterate, New Zealand sheep farmer, misspelling "wether". :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The second one is probably a mishearing of "being said", where the speaker expresses agreement with the sentiment previously expressed. The first one just doesn't exist, unless some words have been missed out: something like "it has to be said". "Convenient" weather may mean good weather for sailing or something like that. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "A pleasant weather" is no better. Remove the "a".  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The first example is just a lapsus calami for "be it said" (one of the stock English phrases that retain the subjunctive), and the second (as TammyMoet indicated) is either a slip for, or a nonnative speaker's attempt at, "being said." Deor (talk) 11:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

OP's comments:


 * Regarding the first sentence, three main suggestions have been made: "be said" is simply an abbreviation (or a lapsus calami) of:
 * 1) let it be said.
 * 2) it has to be said.
 * 3) be it said.

The second one looks better. but I'm still waiting for Shakescene's clarification (see also Rjanag's comment). HOOTmag (talk) 15:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the second sentence, two main suggestions have been made: "is be said" is simply a lapsus calami of:
 * 1) has been said.
 * 2) is being said.


 * I would read both as lapsus claviaturae. --ColinFine (talk) 07:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * clavium. —Tamfang (talk) 00:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

No, my words are nothing what I'd write normally, just some typo where I wrote something and replaced it incompletely. I don't know a week later what I trying to change but it was probably "what has been said" to "what is said" or "what is being said". —— Shakescene (talk) 21:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Manchuria
Can anybody transliterate these Manchurian areas into both Chinese and Japanese letters?
 * Hsing-lung-hsien
 * Ku-pei-kow
 * Luan-ping
 * Je-ho
 * Jehol

Thanks, Doc Taxon (talk) 14:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have listed my results below. Note that the Japanese characters are typically just the traditional Chinese characters.  The current Chinese "spelling" in the People's Republic uses simplified versions of the same characters.  Incidentally, these places are no longer part of Manchuria but instead lie in the present-day province of Hebei.


 * Marco polo (talk) 15:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank You very much for the fast answer. There are some locations more to transliterate, I will ask you in time. Greetings, Doc Taxon (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Multilingual Wikipedias
I'm curious about Wikipedia's policies about languages with more than one literary standard. For example English, French (European and Canadian), Spanish (European and American), Portuguese (European and Brazilian) are languages with only one wikipedia each, while languages like Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk) and Belarusian have a Wiki for every sublanguage. Others, like Emiliano-Romagnolo have one Wikipedia but with different internal articles. So, what's the reason of this arrangement? Is it a matter of linguistic distance? For example, as far as I know, the two varieties of Portuguese have very strong ortographic differences (much stronger than British and America English). P.S. What's the language used in the Rumansch Wikipedia? Sursilvan? Sutsilvan? Surmiran? --151.51.50.29 (talk) 17:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * AFAIK, there isn't a general rule - it's up to the users of the respective Wikipedia. IIRC, the Spanish one is generally in Castile Spanish. Nynorsk is really more of a separate orthography than a separate language, but as such it would make sense - considering that there's a strong political backing of it. I remember there was a project to start a Moldovan version, even though most linguists agree it's the same language as Romanian. So they distinguished themselves by writing in Cyrillic, even though Moldovan now officially uses the Latin alphabet. (So they had a message at the top referring those who wished to read in Latin script to the Romanian wiki) It all got a bit silly IMO, and the project is now defunct. --Pykk (talk) 21:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a comment in English at the Rumansh village pump that gives a nice description of their wikipedia.--Cam (talk) 00:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There have been suggestions that American English should have a separate Wikipedia so that those of us who originated the language could keep our traditional spelling ... and English has the sub-language Scots. wait for the howls - dare I sign this?  D b f i r s   07:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Having a separate wiki just to separate "color" from "colour" and such, seems rather silly. Perhaps there could be a way to indicate a "preference" for British vs. American spellings and have the preferred one show on-screen. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's more than just the spelling of "colour", but yes, it would be silly to have a separate Wiki. I was thinking along the lines of your suggestion for preferences just after I posted my tongue-in-cheek comment above.  It would have to be something along the lines of Microsoft's "autocorrect".  I don't have the programming expertise to implement such a feature, so I will just continue mentally translating into "real" English, just as a I have been doing with American novels for many years.  To be fair, most articles read perfectly on both sides of the pond.    D b f i r s   11:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, as perfectly as the "anyone can edit" philosophy will allow, anyway. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a Scots Wikipedia: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, its great! Can we have a wikipedia in Yorkshire dialect, and Geordie, and Cumbrian, etc?    D b f i r s   07:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, because they don't have ISO 639-3 codes. +Angr 05:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, European and Brazilian Portuguese differ mainly in pronunciation, with some vocabulary and grammar differences. Presumably, it's quite similar to American and British English differences, and we all get along okay.  Well, mostly, :-)   Mae din \talk 07:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Forking the Norwegian Wikipedia into nn: and no: was somewhat controversial. At the time (2003-04) the no.wiki was very small, and the Nynorsk-users were complaining about not being able to contribute in NN, while others felt it would be unproductive to split such a small project. In August '04 a vote was held; 10 people voted against splitting, while 7 people voted for. Still, someone boldly decided to simply create the nn.wiki anyway, but discussion continued, in particular about the no, nn, and nb subdomains. In the end, Norwegian Bokmål retained the no subdomain. It turned out to be impossible to establish an acceptable policy regarding contributions in NN on the original no-wiki. decltype (talk) 09:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not possible (or at least, not straightforward) to convert between UK and US spellings automatically. Consider 'tire' (US) which corresponds to two different UK words 'tire' and 'tyre'; and (not just a matter of spelling here) US 'dove' corresponds to two different UK words 'dove' (bird) and 'dived'. --ColinFine (talk) 23:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ... so the "autocorrect" method would not work for these, and software that recognises context and parts of speech is notoriously unreliable (at present), so we will just have to translate mentally as we read. As Maedin said, we mostly get along okay.    D b f i r s   07:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Imagine the software trying to translate "The incident occurred when the prominent University lecturer was walking along the pavement eating fish and chips. He spotted a multi-coloured object being thrown by a second-division footballer from the garden of a neighbour's house. It bounced off the boot of the car, startling him and causing him to drop his shopping and crushing the biscuits he had bought for his local friendly chemist." Convoluted I'll grant you, but there are a number of words that have different meanings according to the context. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 08:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)