Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 September 8

= September 8 =

Chinese sentence translation assistance please.
This is from an office document:

1－46题采用5级评分制原则，对所列行为表现在工作中出现的频率或达到的程度给予分级评定

I've managed to tease out the following, but I'm not completely happy with it:

''Questions 1 through 46 use a 5 point scale. The scale is based on the frequency with which an employee performs an action / meets the criteria of each question.''

Dead-literal translation is not the goal. Meaning needs to be preserved, but the English must read like normal English. Suggestions as to how to improve my version, or completely new renditions most welcome. Thank you! 218.25.32.210 (talk) 00:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My stab: "Questions 1 - 46 use a 5 point scale to assess the frequency or level of the employee's demonstration of the listed criteria in the course of employment" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's really a stab... in the back, with all that accumulated genitives and corporate jargon :). Original poster's version was much more understandable. Sorry for being blunt. No such user (talk) 06:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * However, the original poster was uncertain whether his translation was accurate. PalaceGuard's translation may be more accurate and is perfectly understandable.  It may also reflect the embedded clauses and corporate style of the original.  If it does, that also makes it a better translation.  If you are unhappy with PG's translation, No such user, may I suggest that you offer a better translation or at least confirm whether the original poster's translation was accurate.  This assumes that you can read Chinese.  If not, potshots aren't very helpful.  Marco polo (talk) 18:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I am aware I wasn't helpful (well, since I don't speak Chinese, I obviously couldn't be of much help). But sorry, I can not understand "frequency or level of the employee's demonstration of the listed criteria in the course of employment", even if it's an accurate translation of the original. Either I'm stupid, or it is a typical example of a corporate bullshit sentence. I apologize that I assumed that PG was the one who garbled the translation, rather than that it was the original was garbled. But then, the OP stated that "dead-literal translation is not the goal". No such user (talk) 08:32, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No such user, at the risk of sounding defensive, the sentence was not garbled, just corporate/bureaucrat-esque. I appreciate that you may not be familiar with this register, but that is the register employed by the original sentence, and the context seems to be a business/corporate one.
 * I've tried to emulate the OP in slightly simplifying the sentences. A more literal translation of "1－46题采用5级评分制原则，对所列行为表现在工作中出现的频率或达到的程度给予分级评定" might run something like this:
 * Questions 1-46 employ a five-grade grading standard principle, in order to give a graded assessment of the frequency of appearance or the degree of demonstration of the enumerated behaviour and performance in the course of work. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OP returns! Yall did alright. I'm still working on that document. It's a translation nightmare - 46 leadership evaluation criteria that are all written in the Chinese version of corporate shorthand - so seriously lacking in subjects, objects, verbs, etc. Thanks for the help! 218.25.32.210 (talk) 02:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Brackets
Is there something in the German language that requires brackets in the section title "«Sonderweg» debate" in History of Germany? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Depending on what language this heading was sourced from - they may be French quotation marks -- and by extension, Swiss (including Swiss German) quotation marks. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In German (outside Switzerland) the guillemets would face the opposite way: »Sonderweg«. However, this is the English Wikipedia and per WP:MOS we use "typewriter quotes" here, so I've changed them in the article. +Angr 09:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

women, woven
Why does the word women have such a unique pronunciation? (Is it unique?) So different from woven and the likes? --Omidinist (talk) 05:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure someone will be along soon to clarify better than me, but for starters, the pronounciation stems from the ethymology of the word. I found this: "late O.E. wimman (pl. wimmen), lit. "woman-man," alteration of wifman (pl. wifmen), a compound of wif "woman" (see wife) + man "human being" (in O.E. used in ref. to both sexes; see man)."
 * Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/woman TomorrowTime (talk) 07:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It actually has a strange spelling, since the spelling of the plural was assimilated to the spelling of the singular, but pronunciation remained distinct... AnonMoos (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's weird enough to merit a spot in the word "fish". --Sean 15:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, it should be noted that words exist as spoken before the exist as written; that is orthography follows pronounciation, it does not determine it. The letter "o" for example represents several sounds in English, so it is not suprising that two words that share that letter actually have different initial vowels (like women and woven).  Consider other examples like food/good or comb/bomb/tomb.  Its just that a) there aren't enough vowel letters to represent all of the vowel sounds in English and b) there really cannot be a one-to-one correspondance bewteen vowel sounds and letters, since different dialects of English use different vowels for the same words (consider, for example, all the ways "house" gets pronounced).  -- Jayron  32  20:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * All these ol' Germanic words originally had vowels that went towards 'e' in the plural form, which usually means an umlaut. In English we all know "man/men". German has "Mann/Männer" "Apfel/Äpfel" (apple/apples) whereas Swedish is "Äpple/Äpplen" originally "Apel/Äpple" (the plural having become the singular). What's interesting here is that since it was 'wimmen' in late O.E., the pronunciation has stayed almost the same. It seems what's happened here is that the singular "wimman" had a change of vowel to /ʊ/, where the plural didn't. The /ʊ/ got represented as an 'o' which somehow got transfered onto the plural (either then or later, I don't know). Hence: "woman/women". --Pykk (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all for your useful comments, you Sean for that impressive fish story, and you Jayron for reminding this great fact: words exist as spoken before they exist as written. --Omidinist (talk) 03:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

german names, meanings
What do these German names mean: Schopenhauer, Nietszche, Kierkegaard, Hitler? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.39.43 (talk) 06:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * ... that someone either hates philosophy OR is a neo-nazi? 218.25.32.210 (talk) 06:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a guess: (1) It's time to go shopping (2) I need you (3) Bodyguard to the captain of the Enterprise (4) Adolf Hitler is an anagram of "Heil old fart".--Shantavira|feed me 08:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL . . . I once saw a sign that looked like it was written in German but once you started reading it out loud then you realized it was just English words dressed up like German. Sort of like Dog Latin.  It was funny.  L&#9786;g&#9786;maniac chat? 20:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it the blinkenlights sign? —Tamfang (talk) 19:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Hauer means 'cutter' . The origin of Schopen is proving difficult to find.


 * I think Nietszche comes from Russian. Kierkegaard is Danish, and at first guess, has something to do with "church", from kirke.


 * On Hitler, In 1876, he took the surname of his stepfather, Johann Georg Hiedler. The name was spelled Hiedler, Huetler, Huettler and Hitler, and was probably regularized to Hitler by a clerk. The origin of the name is either "one who lives in a hut" (Standard German Hütte), "shepherd" (Standard German hüten "to guard", English heed), or is from the Slavic word Hidlar and Hidlarcek. (Regarding the first two theories: some German dialects make little or no distinction between the ü-sound and the i-sound.)
 * AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the only one of these names with a transparent meaning is Kierkegaard, which is Danish, not German. It means churchyard. +Angr 09:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Schopenhauer comes from Low German "Schopen" ("Schöpfkelle" in modern German, "ladle" in English, though the cognate word is probably "scoop"). Someone who hammers ladles into shape ("der Schopen zuhaut"). The corresponding High German name is Schaffenhauer. (Albert Heintze, Die Deutschen Familiennamen — geschichtlich, geographisch, sprachlich, p 255/256, Adamant Media Corporation, ISBN 1421224070). ---Sluzzelin talk  13:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As for Nietzsche, the name is more likely Polish, not Russian. Nietzsche himself was proud of his Polish descent, even wrote that it was the Polish blood in German veins that made Germany such a great nation, and he wrote a text on the origin of the family Nietzsche, stating that they came from a family of Polish nobility named Nietzki. The Polish aristocratic name Nicki has also been suggested. What these names mean in Polish I have no clue, I hope Kpalion or others might have something to say about that. Will still be looking for something more recent, more definitive, and more reliable, but that's what I found so far. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Grammar check
Can someone please tell me if the following is grammatical, and if not, can they fix it :)
 * Traffic in Samoa now drives on the left side of the road, the first country to make such a switch in nearly 40 years.

Other suggestions have included: But I don't really like them. Thanks &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Samoa becomes the first territory for 30 years to switch the side of the road which it drives on.
 * Samoa switches the side of the road that traffic drives on becoming the first country in nearly 40 years to do so.


 * The sentence is incorrect because grammatically "the first country" refers back to "Traffic" or "road", not "Samoa." I suggest:


 * Traffic in Samoa now drives on the left side of the road: Samoa is the first country to make such a switch in nearly 40 years. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 13:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With a colon, huh? That might work. Thanks &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would use a semicolon instead. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 14:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Aww, I just posted it. A semi-colon would work as well, although I can see why a colon was suggested ... what do others think? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:57, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest Traffic in Samoa now drives on the left side of the road, making it the first country to make such a switch in nearly 40 years. The "it" is perhaps technically ambiguous, but avoids the rather inelegant duplication of "Samoa". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought about this, but didn't like the repetition of the verb "make". &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:55, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the following might also work:
 * Traffic now drives on the left side of the road in Samoa, the first country to make such a switch in nearly 40 years.
 * @87: are you sure "the first country" could refer back to "Traffic" in the original example? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I think this is the best wording, and it has now been changed to this on the main page. Thanks all. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah the original example certainly won't do, for the reason stated by 87. Zain Ebrahim's version is the most elegant so far, but – like most of the versions – it has a fundamental flaw: it assumes that the switch has to be from right to left.  Presumably we're just talking about countries which have made the switch, regardless of which way the switch has gone.  So "such a switch" in Zain's example refers back to the fact that Samoa has switched from right to left.  But Britain, for example, currently drives on the left, so if they had made a switch there, it would have been to the right.  I hope I've explained myself properly; the point is that you need to encompass both possibilities.  Something like "Samoa has changed the side traffic drives on from right to left, making it the first country to change the driving side in nearly 40 years." --Richardrj talkemail 15:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't like "traffic drives", period. People drive, traffic doesn't drive.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I would replace "traffic drives on" with "traffic keeps to".  Marco polo (talk) 18:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I find nothing wrong with the original sentence (though I agree that 'traffic drives' is not optimal). The claim that 'the first country' refers back to 'traffic' or 'road' is bogus, because it ignores the crucial part of linguistics called pragmatics. --ColinFine (talk) 23:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer "Drivers now use the left side of the road in Samoa, the first country in nearly 40 years to make the switch from right to left hand side driving." Traffic doesn't "drive" as such, although this is not a outright error. And in my construction, Samoa is more closely linked with the second half of the sentence, which deals with the legal change. Someone might quibble that it is not only drivers of cars who now use the left side of the road, but there is no need to have legally watertight definitions in such contexts. My construction makes it clear what kind of change was made. Also, beginning the sentence with "drivers" makes it stronger and neater. Myles325a (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't like the "switch from right to left" part of your sentence – maybe you didn't notice my post above? The point being made is presumably that no country had changed the side it drives on in 40 years.   So the construction needs to allow for the possibility that a country could have changed from left to right.  I would change the second half of your sentence to "the first country in nearly 40 years to switch its driving side." --Richardrj talkemail 07:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Cordycepin pronounciation
How do you pronounce cordycepin? It's an antibiotic. Thanks! Aaadddaaammm (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If the pronunciation of the species name of the fungus (Cordyceps) from which it's derived is any indication (not necessarily a valid assumption, I know), // might be likely. Deor (talk) 15:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Deor is exactly right. I checked in my favorite dictionary.  Just in case you can't read IPA, it would be something like car-duh-SEP-in.  :)  L&#9786;g&#9786;maniac chat? 19:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

How do I form the female equivalents of each of these French nouns?
I know that some nouns (such as un professeur) remain the same even when referring to a female, but others (such as un chien) have alternate feminine forms. However, I was unable to find the feminine forms of these nouns, so could someone please help me with this?


 * un cheval
 * un guide
 * un témoin
 * un renard
 * un cheminot
 * un coq
 * un agent de police
 * un rhinocéros

--76.211.89.20 (talk) 22:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that un coq would be une poule and guide, témoin, and agent would stay the same (une guide, etc.). Not sure about the others. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 22:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Any good French or French-English dictionary that gives one form will tell you whether there's a variation for the other gender. If there isn't, then it will say something like
 * Professeur nom masc. et fem. or n.m. & f.
 * And, having written that, I consulted "Professeur" in my Petit Larousse Illustré 2004, and it only gives n. m. My French idiom isn't strong enough that I can't confidently say whether one could, or would, never write something like "Marie Blanc, le professeur d'histoire". However Larousse does give
 * RENARDE n.f. Renard femelle. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (aside) Of course, Renard translates "fox", while renarde translates "vixen", since the English animal names differ. But that doesn't explain the transferred use to women; most women would be flattered to be called "a fox" or "foxy" but not pleased by being called "a vixen" or "vixenish". —— Shakescene (talk) 23:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

(after two edit conflicts)
 * un cheval = une jument;
 * un renard = une renarde;
 * un coq = une poule;
 * un rhinocéros = une rhinocéros and is not to be translated as une rhinocère (that is either the fabled land of the rhinoceros or someone from the Rhineland) (update after further research).
 * une guide, une témoin, une cheminot, une agent do not change (but Madame le Ministre is strongly supported by the Académie Française). -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 22:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "La professeuse" is a non-standard feminine form, used in a jokey way as far as I understand. I always learned to call female professors "le professeur" or just "le prof". Adam Bishop (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The confusion as to whether to feminise a form or not in the world of employment stems partly from the distinction between a job (métier) or a function (fonction), especially in the domain of public functions (of which professeur is one), furthermore complicated by the notion of protocol.. Hence "Les différents guides du protocole sont peu diserts sur la question. Ils préconisent d'adopter la forme féminine du substantif, lorsque celle-ci existe, et d'employer, faute de mieux, le masculin lorsqu'un titre ou une fonction ne comporte pas de forme féminine. Ainsi, le bon usage serait d'employer la forme féminine lorsqu'un titre en a une : on écrirait donc l'avocate, la présidente, la conseillère, la secrétaire, l'adjointe, l'inspectrice, la pharmacienne, la députée. On dirait en revanche une femme professeur, une femme médecin, une femme ingénieur, Madame le Maire et Madame le Ministre. En appliquant ce principe à l'exercice par les individus de leur fonction, on aurait ainsi : Colette est un grand écrivain, la pharmacienne est titulaire du diplôme de pharmacien, Mme Loubet est professeur agrégé." . This can be circumvented by using 'enseignant(e)' (someone who teaches) as opposed to 'professeur' (someone holding the title of the public function 'teacher'). Oddly, institutrice, maîtresse, directrice de l'école passed into common use fairly easily, whereas la professeur has not. The debate in France is endless. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 05:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The French are very protective of their language; unlike English, where most authoritative dictionaries, like the Oxford English Dictionary, attempt to be descriptive (show how people use language" rather than proscriptive (tell people how they SHOULD use language), the French have extablished the Académie française, which is a proscriptive body, and which determines the usage of official French. There is no official English because there is no body to enforce it.  While officially the Académie holds no force of law (it cannot force people to follow its rulings) in reality, it weilds great power over usage in France.  -- Jayron  32  17:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * English is said to be the most democratic language. We'll bring any word into the language if we think it fits. Then, of course, we proceed to butcher the pronunciation. Like pronouncing the French word filet as "fill-it". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * All languages, when they borrow from other languages, butcher the original pronunciation to some degree. That's why it's silly to retain diacritics for words that have been imported from French, for example (première, début, café, rôle ...).  We don't pronounce these words the way a francophone does, so there's no value in pretending we do.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * café at least has the virtue of not appearing to rhyme with safe. —Tamfang (talk) 20:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)