Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 April 10

= April 10 =

Traduttore, traditore!
It's common for writers to discuss the problems of translation, but has a notable writer ever actually refused to allow their own work to be translated, either into a particular target language or in general? L ANTZY T ALK 02:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's possible to prevent people from translating their published works into other languages. Whether those translations ever see the light of day as separate publications is another issue; but there's nothing to stop anyone from coming up with their own private translation of any foreign-language book you care to name.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   02:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. Perhaps I ought to clarify. Has there ever been a notable writer who opposed the translation of his work, whether or not he had the power to prevent it? L ANTZY T ALK 04:43, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * See Copyright Advisory Network / Translation copyright. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:22, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Technically in Islam, the Quran cannot be translated, only "explained" or "interpreted"...But this is more figurative than literal, since "translation" does in fact take place...--71.111.229.19 (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the book is translated, Muslims just don't consider it the Qur'an afterwards. --Tango (talk) 14:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Until relatively recently the Bible was also not supposed to be translated from Latin to vernacular languages, although the Latin itself is a translation, and various vernacular translations were made anyway. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If your definition of "relatively recently" is ca. 425 years ago (around the time when the Douai Bible, French "Louvain" Bible etc. were being made). AnonMoos (talk) 09:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

George Steiner, I seem to recall, will not allow his novella The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H. to be translated into German, for fear that the words he put into Hitler's mouth in his defense speech might sound a bit too good for comfort in German.--Rallette (talk) 11:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

From Arturo Pérez-Reverte: He originally refused to have his novels translated from the original Spanish to any language other than French. --151.51.45.45 (talk) 11:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Willem Frederik Hermans is another recent case. He was disappointed in early translations of his novels (from the original Dutch) in the 1960's and did not authorize any further translations until his death, which occured in 1995. He is only now becoming recognized as a major writer outside of the Netherlands and Belgium because of this. --Xuxl (talk) 17:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

What about Mein Kampf? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I can't see anything about Hitler refusing permission for it to be translated, and indeed there have been many translations, all equally unreadable. What you may be referring to is the title, which, in English at least, is not translated.  I've never known why not.  It seems to be in the same camp as Marx's "Das Kapital".  Our article very helpfully translates Mein Kampf as "My Struggle", but just as un helpfully fails to say why that translation is almost never actually used anywhere.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   18:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The English translation of Mein Kampf was reviewed by Kenneth Burke, perhaps he has something to say about this (the English Mein Kampf was a watered down edition of the book it is said).--Radh (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * One of Alan Cranston's early claims to fame was that he circulated a semi-bootleg unexpurgated translation of Mein Kampf into English at a time when the German government was opposed to it... AnonMoos (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

How many 8-bit characters are there in Mein Kampf? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 11:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Pretty Woman, or Rich guy who likes cheap hookers?
I have heard that the 1990 film Pretty Woman, starring Richard Gere and Julia Roberts, was given a more descriptive title in Chinese, something along the line of "I am rich, but I still like cheap hookers" or "I will marry a prostitute to save money". According to a paper, Pretty Woman was translated into “漂亮女人” in mainland, “风月俏佳人” in Hong Kong. Can anyone provide a literal translation? (talk) 12:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC) Google Translate yields "Pretty Woman" for both, which is normally helpful, but not here
 * According to Wiktionary, 漂亮女人 really is literally "pretty woman", while 风月俏佳人 literally means "wind-moon-pretty-beautiful-person". Perhaps someone who actually knows Cantonese can shed light on the latter. +Angr 13:34, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The mainland translation (漂亮女人) is indeed a literal translation of the English title. No idea about the HK translation (like Angr said, we'll need a Cantonese speaker), but it certainly doesn't look like it says anything about prostitutes or being cheap. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 14:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Per zh-wiki, the Taiwanese release was translated as 麻雀變鳳凰 (simplified: 麻雀变凤凰), which is literally "Sparrow becomes Phoenix". That's probably some kind of chengyu (sounds reminiscent of The Ugly Duckling) but I don't see how it would have the hooker meaning either. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Some online translators and dictionaries translate 風月 (风月 in simplified Chinese) as "romance" or "romantic". However, in Hong Kong Cantonese, 風月 is often used as a euphemism related to sex business. 風月場所 refers to venues where services of a sexual nature are (understood to be) offered and bought, perhaps not openly. 俏 means "pretty" in Chinese. 佳人 is a literary word for a beautiful woman. Taken together 風月俏佳人 can be translated as "a beautiful woman in the sex business." --98.114.98.200 (talk) 17:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The bit about "I am rich, but I still like cheap hookers" or "I will marry a prostitute to save money" are jokes. As you can see it surfacing on various websites along with dozens other fake movie titles.
 * In make sense to use a completely different movie title for marketability because humour and play-on-words are usually lost in translation. The translator/marketer would usually opt to use native catch phrase or idiom so that it would not sound cumbersome in a literal translation. Intersetingly, 《風月俏佳人》is also the Chinese title for Milk Money.
 * A famous example is The Sound of Music, whose HK title is 《仙樂飄飄處處聞》; whereas in the Mainland is the more literal 《音乐之声》and 《真善美》in Taiwan. "仙樂飄飄處處聞" comes from Bai Juyi's Tang poem 《長恨歌》 (though the original stanza was "仙樂風飄處處聞". 真善美 is another well known term meaning "truth, kindness, beauty" or just "goodness". I'm willing to bet "風月俏佳人" is one of these where it comes from literary works. I can't tell you which one at this moment.
 * Here's a list of movie titles compared in HK, Taiwan and China. --Kvasir (talk) 22:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of the mainland China entries in that post are completely made up (probably for satire). It's rather sad that some people appear to believe that they would actually use such idiotic translations. I second 98's explanation, but there are more subtleties behind that translation. 佳人 means beautiful woman but also has the connotation of a sophisticated, cultured lady. 俏 also has similar connotations of elegance and also playfulness. In a financial context it also means something is doing well (eg. rising stock). So to tie it all together you can read it as a beautiful woman in the sex business." but with the connotations and subtleties it becomes "working girl rises to elegant lady", which fits the movie well. --antilivedT 14:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)