Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 April 11

= April 11 =

Help with article on Japanese subject

 * Cross-posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan

I am trying to get Masako Katsura to featured article level. I've gone as far as I can with English Language sources, but there has to be many in Japanese, probably with a lot of vital information not in any of the English sources. I could really use the help of someone fluent in Japanese who has a research skillset. The easy stuff first: I'd like to place her written Japanese name in proper form at the start of the article. I got this: の検索結果 from some Wikipedia mirror Japanese site. I have no idea if it's correct or even that I identified the correct part the page that displayed her name. I'd like to place right after her Latin character name something similar to the form that follows, grabbed from another article:
 * "Hideki Tōjō (Kyūjitai: 東條 英機; Shinjitai: 東条 英機)"

More involved help: it would be wonderful if someone would gather together a list of reliable sources available online, if there are any, which discuss her. It is pretty much impossible for me to do so with the language barrier. Once I have a list, I can use machine translation as best I can to see what they say and if they have any additional information and can ask specific questions here or elsewhere if I identity something to add to make sure I get it right. Of course, anyone who wants to go further and contribute to the article is welcome, but I would ask that anything you add be cited to a reliable source in an inline citation.

Finally, I am looking at a minimum for the following (citable) information all of which, is far more likely to be available from Japanese sources than English: Her exact date of birth, where she was born and lived as a child (anything on her childhood prior to 14 really) her family's details, their parents and siblings names etc., and finally, her date of death or confirmation that she's still alive and where she lives now (she would be 96-97 years old, having moved back to Japan from the U.S. in about 1990). Finally, note that apparently she and her sister toured many parts of Asia giving exhibitions in 1929 and later and it might be that she has mention in other Asian language sources, especially Chinese.

Thanks for any help.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:40, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * One minor point that I know about: "の" is a preposition meaning "of", and is not part of the name if it occurs at the end or the beginning (some old Japanese names had no in the middle, but my vague impression is that that's kind of archaic by now). AnonMoos (talk) 07:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Japanese does not have prepositions (前置詞). It's a postposition (後置詞). Rather than glossing it as "of", describing it as a genitive case particle is more precise. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 07:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, should have said "adposition" [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] Another point is that "-ko" as a suffix in Japanese feminine names is most commonly written 子, as far as I'm aware... AnonMoos (talk) 07:59, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "Katsura" appears to be 桂, as in the existing article, but Masako shows at least four different names "Masako". The most common among these appears to be 雅子, so if this is indeed her name, it would normally appear as 桂雅子. A search for any of the four names on Japanese Wikipedia fails, nor does she seem to be referred to at jp:ビリヤード (billiards). 桂雅子 does get several Google hits, but most of them seem to be to do with film (映画) so I'm guessing that there is an actress of that name. That's the best I can do. --ColinFine (talk) 09:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At the wikiproject cross-post, they have tracked her name to properly be 桂 マサ子; she wrote at least two books, which give her name in Japanese and in this form which are shown at the National Diet Library. The link which showed this was this but now I get a "session expired" when I look at it. Thanks!--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It says it's closed for maintenance.
 * Yes the existing article has her name in that form. As far as I know, it's not usual to write a Japanese given name in katakana, which is why I was looking for spellings in kanji. --ColinFine (talk) 17:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It depends. Katakana names were quite common in Meiji and Shōwa Period. Many (extreme) elderly people still write their names like this. Also, another factor is that the subject apparently spent a significant amount of time outside of Japan, making her "outside the group", and hence treated similarly as a foreigner. (See for example Yoko Ono.) It's hard to say anything definite. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Am I missing something here? Where the OP has written "I got this: の検索結果 from some Wikipedia mirror Japanese site.", the 'の検索結果' bit just means 'search result of', and is not anybody's name. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  21:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. You'll note that I said "I have no idea if it's correct or even that I identified the correct part the page that displayed her name." Obviously I did not find the part of the page which displayed her name!--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Korean syllables
How often occur the syllables 샤, 섀, 셔, 셰, 쇼, and 슈 in the Korean language? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 15:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 셔, 쇼, 슈 occur frequently.
 * I don't think I've heard 샤, 섀, 셰 that often, except in loanwords. In loanwords, 샤, 섀, 셰 aren't uncommon. --Kjoonlee 23:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

How often occur the syllables 샤, 섀, 셔, 셰, 쇼, and 슈 in Sino-Korean words? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 10:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not at all. There aren't any. --Kjoonlee 12:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Why are the syllables 샤, 섀, 셔, 셰, 쇼, and 슈 absent from Sino-Korean words? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 19:55, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Is this homework? The semivowel+vowel in 섀 just isn't found in Sino-Korean letter names. For the rest, the [ʃ] sound just isn't found in Sino-Korean letter names either. You might want to read the phonotactics article and try to figure something out. 야, 여, 예, 요, 유 are found in Sino-Korean. --Kjoonlee 00:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 교, 규 exist, but 갸 doesn't in Sino-Korean either. --Kjoonlee 03:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Are there any Sino-Korean words which begin with the letter ㅋ? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 09:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, and there aren't any Korea-specific characters that start with ㅋ either. But why do you ask? Do you need detailed sources? --Kjoonlee 09:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

SUV (pronunciation)
When you say "SUV" (as in sports utility vehicle) in English, do you only pronounce the letters separately ("ess you vee") or can you make it sound like a single word (like "soove" or "suvv") too? --AlexSuricata (talk) 16:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In my experience, always "ess you vee". And occasionally "wankermobile". PhGustaf (talk) 16:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've only heard the initialism. If someone said they bought a soove, I wouldn't know what they were talking about.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]  16:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. StuRat (talk) 16:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * On another hand, I have (very rarely) heard spute or pigwagon . —Tamfang (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Nobody says "SUV" in the UK. "Four-wheel-drive", "4x4" (pronounced "four by four") or "off-roader" are the equivelant terms on this side of the Atlantic. Alansplodge (talk)


 * What do you call a 2-wheel-drive SUV ? StuRat (talk) 19:13, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Unmarketable. --jpgordon:==( o ) 04:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:54, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "Nobody says "SUV" in the UK." - totally untrue. --62.41.72.25 (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems to be the fashion for certain brits to deny use of any phrase originating in the USA. I'm Irish and we understand "SUV" fine, although the simple "Jeep" tends to be used more often, just as "hoover" is used instead of "vacuum cleaner".--92.251.220.72 (talk) 17:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a distinction should be made between "use" and "understand". For example, I understand "betwixt", but would never use it, except it jest. StuRat (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure this guy pronounces it 'soove'. --JoeTalkWork 21:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

South African English word "moltrein"
What is the usual name for the "subway train/underground train" in South African English? I know that moltrein is also used in slang, but does anyone use it in everyday English? In South Africa I never saw a "rapid transit system", I just know it from the movies. Sεrvιεи | T@lk page 17:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Can anyone make a list of grammatical differences between South African English and American/British English, for exampe: do we say dived or dove (now I think of it I can't remember, I think "dived"), sometimes I also find that South African English lies somewhat between British and American English (may be because of the media?) for example BrE = at the weekend, AmE = on the weekend, SAE = in the weekend [from: in die naweek?], sometimes it sounds British i.e. holiday, autumn etc., and other times American i.e. movie, flashlight. Sεrvιεи | T@lk page 18:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Brits don't say flashlight? Rimush (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Torch. Vimescarrot (talk) 21:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. I lived to this age without knowing that. Thanks. Rimush (talk) 21:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm South African and don't know a word for that except "subway" which we marvel at when overseas. It's probably because we've never had a subway until the "Gautrain" which is to be officially opened this year just before the World Cup. Gautrain is not a nickname though; it is named after the province Gauteng. Sandman30s (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just confirmed with some Afrikaners at work and "moltrein" is more of an Afrikaans word rather than a general slang word. It comes from "mole" which has an obvious analogy. Sandman30s (talk) 11:25, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of some French names
Hi there. I'm working on the first Indochina War on an essay, and I don't want to keep bastardising the French names in my head. I'm not too clued up on the French language, nor on the phonetic pronunciation text that accompanies many articles on Wikipedia. Would anyone be able to just spell out (in terms of pronunciation) the following names?


 * Rene Cogny, is it Rene as in Rene Zellwegger then Cogny as in cog-knee?
 * ruh NAY koh NYEE


 * Henri Navarre, is it Henri as in Thierry Henry and Navarre to rhyme with Nav-Car?
 * awn REE nah VAHR (Note that the "on" in "on REE" is really a nasal vowel—"aw" pronounced through the nose without air leaving the mouth—rather than a vowel followed by an "n" sound)


 * Langlais, is it Longlace?
 * lawn GLAY (In "lon" we have the same nasal vowel described above rather than a vowel plus an "n" sound.)


 * Bigeard, is it Bij to rhyme with fridge then aired?
 * bee ZHAHR (In this word, "ge" is pronounced with a sound that I have described as "zh". This is the same sound that you make for the "ge" in the English word "beige".)

Thanks for your help, feel free to put the answers next to my bullet points. SGGH ping! 20:49, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Your best bet is probably to review IPA for French and IPA, since the IPA is a more accurate and useful pronunciation guide than any comparisons to English words. But for quick reference:
 * René Cogny (the accent is required): first name is like you said, Cogny is roughly like "cone-yee".
 * Henri Navarre: the H is silent, so the first name is like "on-ree". In Navarre, the first syllable is not stressed, so it shouldn't sound like "nav"; the vowel is more like a schwa. Something like "nuh-var".
 * Langlais: the S is silent, and the vowel at the beginning is not the same as the one in "long", it's more like the one in "la" (as in 'tra la la'). The word is something like "lang-lay".
 * Bigeard: not quite sure, but it's probably more like "beej-ar". (The last syllable should have the same pronunciation as in Jean-Luc Picard: the D is silent.)
 * r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I struggle to understand the IPA stuff, but thank you for your help! Your responses are much more helpful, and you referenced Jean-Luc Picard! SGGH ping! 21:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Um, no, the first syllable of 'Navarre' is not reduced the way we do in English. It's still an /a/, albeit short. On the other hand, the first syllable of 'René' is a schwa, so it doesn't sound like 'rennay' which is what most English speakers in Britain seem to do with the name (I don't know what Americans do with it: if they give it final stress, as they often do with French words, they may naturally produce a schwa in the first syllable). Anyway, the first syllable should be like that in 'ravine' - though with a French 'r' back in the throat. --ColinFine (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * • Navarre would very much be pronounced "nuh-var" if you were saying it in English.
 * • I pronounce ravine like "ruh-veen". How do you say it?Paul Davidson (talk) 14:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But the discussion was about how the French pronunciation sounds, not about how it might change in English; so Rjanag's post seemed to suggest that it is "uh" in French. After all, you wouldn't need to remind English speakers to sound English. And if they could avoid reducing to schwa in English - it would be appropriate to encourage them to avoid it, not vice versa. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it's like Picard, since no one ever pronounces Picard with a French accent (except occasionally Q, I suppose). Adam Bishop (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have added phonetic transcriptions to each of your names above using phonetic spellings modeled on English spelling. Marco polo (talk) 00:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * IPA (someone's gotta do it!): ʁəne kɔɲi; ɑ̃ri nɑvaʁ; lɑ̃lɛ; biʒaʁ. More or less.
 * The first responder's "aw" is wrong, unless your dialect has the cot-caught merger. —Tamfang (talk) 01:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The French nasal [a] (i.e./ɑ̃/) often sounds more rounded than its non-nasal counterpart, so it may indeed seem more like an [ɔ] to a non-French speaker. Admittedly, a modern Southern England pronunciation of the  phoneme may be too high to resemble French /ɑ̃/, but the American version is more or less fine IMO (even in a pronunciation which doesn't have the cot-caught merger). --91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Assuming Langlais comes from the word l'anglais, it is pronounced [lɑ̃ɡlɛ].—Emil J. 14:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Are there any French dialects with an /ɑ̃/-/ɔ̃/ merger? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 12:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I look for one word
I regret, but I do not speak well English -- please would you try to comprehend. I look for one word who in english signifies lampe électrique in french. She is like a tube which one turns on and light comes out, if you do not know to speak french. Thank you a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.204.127 (talk) 23:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Google Translate says flashlight, though my first thought was fluorescent lamp. Vimescarrot (talk) 00:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As noted above on this page, torch is British English for American flashlight.
 * A torch would be more precisely une lampe de poche. Lampe électrique literally means "electric light"; I cannot say whether it can also mean torch. Intelligent  sium  00:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * L'article français fr:Lampe électrique est lié à l'article anglais en:Lamp (electrical component). On peut dire en anglais "lamp" ou "electric lamp" ou "light" ou "electric light".  Les expressions avec "electric" sont plus précises parce que "lamp" peut signifier "lampe allumée par de l'huile" et "light" peut signifier "lumière" comme celle du soleil.  Pour améliorer votre connaissannce de la langue anglaise, vous pouvez utiliser les sites suivants.
 * Apprendre l'anglais en ligne gratuitement, cours anglais, British Council France (for French speakers)
 * Anglais en ligne - ABA English
 * e-Anglais.com: cours d'anglais, exercices, tests, ressources, grammaire
 * Visual Dictionary Online
 * Visual dictionary
 * LanguageGuide: Foreign Language Vocabulary, Grammar, and Readings
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 00:13, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * [Je corrige l'orthographe: "a" --> "à". -- Wavelength (talk) 00:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)]
 * [Je corrige l'orthographe: "utilisez" --> "utiliser". -- Wavelength (talk) 00:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)]


 * Consider also light bulb (ampoule). —Tamfang (talk) 01:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Je suis d'accord avec Tamfang --- c'est possible que le meilleur traduction de "lampe électrique" est "light bulb". Ampoule électrique = light bulb, lampe de poche = torch or flashlight, mais il me semble que "lampe électrique" peut signifier tout les deux  Tinfoilcat (talk) 10:54, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

if it's a "tube" then it's a flourescent lamp. Period. Everything anyone is about to respond to this comment with or raise by way of criticism notwithstanding. The real, the one true answer to the question is "flourescent lamp."84.153.204.187 (talk) 14:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the French Wiki article on the fluorescent lamp says "Un tube fluorescent est un type particulier de lampe électrique". Rimush (talk) 14:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For anyone who might not know, the word "nothwithstanding", though usually used postpositively, just means "despite". In other words, the meaning of the above is that the one true answer is flourescent lamp despite Rimush's, or anyone else's, upcoming criticism of this answer. 84.153.204.187 (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Pedant's corner: the word is "fluorescent" (note the positions of the u and the o). --TammyMoet (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * History is full of people who passionately declare they possess the One Truth. Here on the Reference Desk, though, you need to cite a source, which you have not done.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it certainly sounds like the OP is describing a flourescent light, but it would be hard to say for sure unless he could find us an illustration. Also, the only other recent contribution by that IP (which geolocates to Wisconsin) seems to be in proper English, so it's possible there's a delayed April 1 thing going on here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do they grow a lot of wheat in Wisconsin? And wherever you live?  :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Field corn, sileage corn, soybeans, etc., throughout the American midwest. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Deadest bat I've ever seen. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:52, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be the Houston Astros, who are winless so far this season. They play under arclights. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:34, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh good. Anything's better than lights that sort of turn into flour (!)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   18:00, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * A flashlight (torch) also looks like a tube. —Tamfang (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry if this is repetitive, but the French wikipedia's article on the subject makes it clear that the generic English equivalent would be "electric light", using the term "light" in the colloquial way that means "lightbulb" or "lamp". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:14, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Part of the confusion is that "light" (which comes from Latin and Greek) is used to mean both light itself and a source of light, whereas "lamp" (also from Latin and Greek) is more restrictive and refers only to a source of light. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahem. "Light" is a good old Germanic word and does not come from either Latin or Greek. +Angr 12:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was going by my Webster's, and also check out OE: (or EO, to be clearer). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Websters and EO both say the same thing, that "light" goes back to a Proto-Indo-European root that also evolved into similar Latin and Greek words, but the English form is purely Germanic... Adam Bishop (talk) 13:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The ancestor words "leuk" and "lux" would not be far apart in pronunciation. It's interesting that the sanskrit root of both is "rocate", so the "R" slid to to an "L", it seems. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The OE gives the PIE root as *leuk-, which means that the "l" slid to a "r" in Sanskrit, not the other way round.—Emil J. 14:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * All the better. So "light" may not come from "lux", but they both come from the same thing ultimately. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Lampe electrique is a sort of umbrella term for things such as light bulbs and fluorescent lamps, apparently, but the OP seems to be describing a fluorescent lamp. Rimush (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2010 (UTC)