Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 April 16

= April 16 =

Chinese saying
What is the chinese saying that was used to refer to many of the female in Chinese history who were blamed for the end of dynasties? ex. Consort Yu, Daji and Yang Guifei. It is something about a red something (bird?) always disturb the water.
 * You are probably thinking of 紅顏禍水/ 红颜祸水. 一笑傾城 / 一笑倾城 also works. (literally: one smile falls city) --Kvasir (talk) 04:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Colloquial American English:Lifts
>Lifs ==

1. Is it acceptable to says "lifs" instead of "lif t s" in "He lif t s heavy things"?

2. Please elaborate. --68.215.227.6 (talk) 00:22, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * First off, I'll start by saying that precisely speaking, there is no one American English; there are many American Englishes. So in some regional dialects, some Americans might pronounce the /t/ while in other dialects they might not. It might also depend on context--who is the person speaking to? Is it a casual situation, or a formal one?
 * That said, I can tell you that I would normally omit the /t/ sound when saying, "He lifts up heavy things." I live in Richmond, VA, and my regional dialect(s) surely affect my pronunciation. (Actually, thinking about it, I actually pronounce "dialects" as "dialex"--again omitting the /t/.) Hope this is helpful. Staplovich (talk) 00:34, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was only asking about the pronunciation of "lifts" in casual situations where proper articulation is not of paramount importance.


 * User:Staplovich's answer was extremely helpful.--68.215.227.6 (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Found some interesting articles sort of related to this, hope you have JSTOR access:
 * Temperley, Mary S. "The Articulatory Target for Final -s Clusters" TESOL Quarterly, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Sep., 1983)
 * Make sure to read Richard A. Spears' comments.
 * Hultzén, Lee S. "Consonant Clusters in English" American Speech, Vol. 40, No. 1 (Feb., 1965).
 * Other examples of the /fts/ consonant cluster: lofts, gifts (compare GIFs), grafts (compare graphs)... -Andrew c [talk] 01:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You pronounce GIF with a g? I use dʒ.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 17:25, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, never mind: I see this is covered at GIF.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 17:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I added your great links to the consonant cluster article.--68.218.108.68 (talk) 02:14, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Japanese Chinese Translation: Fruity Oaty Bars
What is the Japanese man saying in the Fruity Oaty Bar commercial? I'd like the romaji and the translation. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 03:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct the link, please. I could see no Japanese man. Oda Mari (talk) 04:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's the correct link. Lazar Taxon just confused Chinese for Japanese. I can't understand everything he is saying because he slurs some of his words (not to mention the fact that I am not fluent in the language). He says "I am very (don't understand what he says), I don't have a Fruity Bar (我很...我没有..." I'm pretty sure he says the bar part in Chinglish. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 04:32, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I see. But when I clicked the link, it was linked to this one. I watched the commercial when I clicked the second time. It's Chinese. Sorry I cannot help. BTW, I corrected the thread name. Oda Mari (talk) 05:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

我很丟臉，我沒有吃過 fuity oaty bar.(I've lost face, I've never eaten a Fruity Oaty Bar).Aas217 (talk) 05:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And the transliteration for that (pinyin, not romaji) is wǒ hěn diū liǎn, wǒ méiyǒu chī "fruity oaty bar". (Personally, I'm not convinced that "fruity oaty bar" is what he's saying at the end.) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the misidentification. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For those who don't know where this from, this fake commercial is from Serenity. r ʨ anaɢ missed "guo" in "wǒ méiyǒu chī guo "jiao jin hua"". I agree, I'm not convinced he said "fruity bar" either. --Kvasir (talk) 03:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I originally had guo there and also thought he was saying something like "jiu jin hua", but I listened carefully again and changed my mind (about both guo and "fruity oaty bars". I think he doesn't say guo and does say fruity oaty bars. What we've been hearing as guo actually does sound a bit like a fruity (or fuo-ti). But for a non-native speaker like me, it takes a couple good listens to hear it ;). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 03:57, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I viewed a | related video, sorta like "the-making-of" for this commercial, and I guess the actor intended to say "fruity oaty bar" during his dialect training, but it didn't come out that way. You can hear the difference between the rehearsal and the final product. Btw, without "guo" it would sound awkward, or even incorrect given the sentence here. "mei you chi guo" indicates "have never eaten" whereas "mei you chi", just means "did not eat". --Kvasir (talk) 04:17, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It can sound awkward or not awkward depending on the context. And besides, look at the commercial...it's far from the strangest thing there. But anyway, if you listen carefully, he definitely is saying "fruity oaty bars" (heavily accented) and not -guo jiu jin ba. There are also lots of other websites that give this transcription (just google "我很丢脸，我没有吃fruity oaty bar"). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 05:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I just know realized what that commercial was from. It was from the bar fight sequence in Serenity.--Ghostexorcist (talk) 05:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, like 1.5 hours after I pointed it out... . At any rate, as with all movies, there is always difference between transcription and the actual dialogue. To my 21st century Chinese ears, he definitely said "guo". I cringe everytime these actors bastardise mix of Cantonese and Mandarin expletives on the Firefly series and on the Serenity movie. I have to keep reminding myself the film is set in the 26th century and the language may well have evolved on its way to creolisation with English. --Kvasir (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

propaganda leaflets in library books
I just got a book out of a unveristy library and it had a little leaflet inside. It was about how bad the cops are in the area. It wasn't scrawled on the paper, it was neat, and the way the paper was cut makes it seem like more than a few were printed out and placed into random books. I've heard of people putting in leaflets in books, for propaganda type reasons, to get certain messages out or to get people to think about something etc., but I can't find anything about this kind of thing on Google. Is there a term for it? Has anyone else seen this kind of thing?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:35, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not necessarily just university libraries either: I've found in public libraries leaflets advertising diverse causes ranging from Islam to Taizé. AFAIK there's no real term for it except subtle methods, really.  --  the Great   Gavini  09:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Book stuffing maybe? -- the Great   Gavini  09:10, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Meg Whitman, a candidate for Governor of California, offered her campaign propaganda to the public libraries of California: . I'm not sure how many of them took her up on the offer.  Woogee (talk) 23:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It'd seem to me that librarians would be the last people stuffing propaganda leaflets in books! The Youtube clip is actually kinda funny. It strikes me that a person who believes that most people "hate Jesus Christ" is that exact type of person who'd place leaflets in books.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:29, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * LibraryThing has some funny (and some disturbing) threads about things found in libraries and in library books. Zoonoses (talk) 12:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

"Great Scott" and similar phrases that mention first names
Can someone tell me who the people are that these phrases refer to? "Great Scott", "Heavens to Betsy", "For Pete's sake", and "well hells bells Margaret". Who's Scott? Who's Betsy? Pete? Margaret? Where do these names come from? Where they real historical people? -- &oelig; &trade; 11:06, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Wiktionary is your friend: great Scott, for Pete's sake. Or maybe not: I can't find the other two, and I've never heard of the fourth one.  I'm guessing some of them are liturgical saints.  --  the Great   Gavini  11:50, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You didn't include 'Gordon Bennett!', a name that we do have an article for. Many of these are examples of minced oaths. Mikenorton (talk) 11:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Which are minced oaths though? None of the names look like "God" or anything.  They may just be nonsense oaths in general, but if so, it's amazing that any of them have caught on: by George, the dickens... --  the Great   Gavini  12:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Here are 3 more:
 * "You're terrible, Muriel"
 * Nancy boy
 * "Not tonight, Josephine" --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   12:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

"Good Golly Miss Molly" - does this one count? :) &oelig; &trade; 13:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Little Richard had another similarly-minced expression for a song, "Great Gosh A-Mighty!", except it doesn't mention anyone's name. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

There's "Holy Moly!" which is a softening of "Holy Moses!" I didn't link them because they have both been co-opted by rock bands. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC) There was also "Godfrey Daniel(s)!" which was associated with W.C. Fields. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * These might not be what the OP was asking about, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

"Heavens to Murgatroyd!" should qualify. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

All my eye and Betty Martin.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:27, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * (1) Maybe some people are attempting to live by the letter (but not the spirit) of http://www.mlbible.com/matthew/5-33.htm; http://www.mlbible.com/matthew/5-34.htm; http://www.mlbible.com/matthew/5-35.htm; http://www.mlbible.com/matthew/5-36.htm; http://www.mlbible.com/matthew/5-37.htm.
 * (2) There is a list in the middle of a discussion at http://www.innvista.com/culture/religion/deities/oaths.htm.
 * (3) Language learners might want to learn about such expressions in foreign languages, just enough so that they know what to avoid. Can you imagine an immigrant employee imitating the speech of co-workers or that of popular entertainers, with unexpected consequences?  What a tragedy!  How tragic! -- Wavelength (talk) 19:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I can't. I either disagree or don't understand you as far as (1) and (3) are concerned (and the link in (2) won't open). But never mind.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:09, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Opened just fine for me... -- &oelig; &trade; 01:11, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Spoken language regional accent
Where does the speakers accent suggest he is from in this video? http://www.ted.com/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_demos_photosynth.html He does not have the nasal voice associated with North America, but he does have (what sounds like to European ears) the often exaggerated deepness. I'm aware of his name. Thanks 78.151.110.54 (talk) 12:51, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I found him describing his background on the web, see the comment section of this link. I thought he sounded a little Norwegian, but that doesn't seem right at all. -Andrew c [talk] 13:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * He may appear to sound Norwegian because of the occasional [s] instead of [z], but that feature is equally expected in Spanish speakers, and he does say he spent his childhood in Mexico city - although he doesn't sound very Spanish otherwise.
 * I imagined some Scottish influence at times, but that seems to be wrong, too. It's odd how distinctive the (slight) non-American streak is, given that he spent both his adolescence and his youth in the US. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What caught me was some of his vowels, like how he pronounces the /æ/ in "data" and "ad" with more of an [ɑ]/[ɔ], which isn't a US thing, and where a Spanish speaker would probably move the /æ/ forward, not back, right? -Andrew c [talk] 14:41, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose so. In any case, it's clear that his pronouncing "data" with [ɑː] is not due to his inability to distinguish /æ/ from /ɑ/ in general; rather, pronouncing /ɑː/ as in father in this word is apparently formal UK and Australian practice, according to Wiktionary. But his pronunciation of the vowels is also strange for an American, IMO. His /æ/ sounds (interAct) in general are often very low, often close to [a]; his /ɛ/ sounds (collection) are often very low, too and approximate [æ]; his /ɒ/ sounds (technology) are often, well, really [ɒ] and not [ɑ]. His short vowels are really very short or "clipped" - that is, he almost never protracts them where you would expect an American to do it. Most of these features, taken separately, do occur in some American dialect (lowered /æ/ and /ɛ/s are found in Northern California, [ɒ] in 'cot' is found, I believe, some places on the East Coast, and he did spend time on the East Coast), but the combination of all of them creates some vaguely "British Isles" impression for me, even though this is apparently false.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * From the other side of the Atlantic, it sounds to me like an American who has begun to speak with an English accent. He uses the word "rubbish", which I believe is not used in American-English (unless you know better), but also says "go check it out" which is Americanesque. He's certainly not an English-speaker from any continental European country - I've met lots of Dutch and Scandanavians with perfect English but quite distinctive accents. He's either a Brit who has spent too much time in the US or vice-versa. Perhaps this is a Transatlantic accent? Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd say the accent is unambiguously North American of some variety, but far from typical American or typical Canadian. "Rubbish" is used in American English too, especially metaphorically rather than in reference to literal trash. He doesn't say, he says , but his realization of /æ/ is noticeably closer to cardinal [a] than most North Americans'. Compare his pronunciation of "data" with his pronunciation of "matter" and you'll see it's the same vowel. His [a]-like realization of /æ/ is especially noticeable before nasal consonants, where he has no æ-tensing at all, which is relatively rare in North America. He has /æ/ in "marries" as well, which is normally found only in the northeastern U.S. (and outside North America). But he's fully rhotic and has North American intonation, so there's no chance he learned English anywhere but the U.S. or Canada. (I can't find an instance of /aʊ/ before a voiceless consonant to see whether he has Canadian raising.) I could believe he's not quite a native speaker (I assume from his name and his childhood in Mexico that he's a native Spanish speaker) but that he started speaking English every day (e.g., by moving to the U.S. from Mexico) when he was at the end of his critical period, say around 7 or 8. +Angr 19:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Generally agree. About vs . Well, call me crazy (and I could be biased by my own internalized quasi-Southern British phonology), but his vowels in his first renditions of "data" and "matter" don't sound the same to me at all. His "data" sounds lower and more back than his "matter", and I'm pretty sure that his "data" is also longer (relative to the context, of course) than his "matter", as you'd expect in Southern English. I actually recorded the two with Praat, and while I have neither any real training nor experience with measuring formants, the look of the spectrogram as well as the formant values that the program produces automatically seem to show a difference along these lines (higher f1 and lower f2 for "data"). Admittedly, I also definitely interpret his "vAst" as /væːst/, a long version of his "matter" vowel distinct from his "data", which is /dɑːtə/ to me; but the program seems to suggest that his "vast" is even lower than his "data", and only intermediate between "data" and "matter" in terms of frontness. So I could be imagining a pattern where there is just free variation, or perhaps a phonological distinction where there is just a minor phonetic tendency. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 00:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My first thought was Canadian. With a Spanish sounding family name and claims of a Mexico City childhood, perhaps he has spent a long time in Canada.  Astronaut (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

For everybody's information, I'll copy here what the man himself says on the site that Andrew c linked to above. "Father: Catalan; mother: American Jew; born: Providence, Rhode Island; childhood: Mexico City; adolescence: Maryland; young adulthood: Princeton, NJ; now Seattle." The remaining bewilderment is mostly because his accent does not sound like typical Baltimorese or New Jersey English (here's a nice resource).--91.148.159.4 (talk) 16:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Another possibility is that he's very speech-conscious and is actively trying to suppress what he considers undesirable aspects of (say) Baltimorese. I know that many Americans consider æ-tensing ugly (although virtually everyone does it at least before nasal consonants), so his pronunciation of scan as [skan] may be a deliberate attempt to avoid saying [skeən], as would come naturally. +Angr 06:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

He sounded mid-Atlantic to me, like someone who had spent a lot of time in both Britain and America. I thought he could be from the far eastern parts of the US, although I'm only guessing if accents there are more similar to British. Interesting that he might be deliberately suppressing distinctively American aspects of his speech. Perhaps his mother learnt english with a British accent. 89.240.44.159 (talk) 12:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's Blaise's own comments after reading the above discussion:
 * NorwegianBlue, thank you for forwarding! It's utterly bizarre (and bizarrely flattering) to see such attention paid to my vowels and fricatives. (OK, none of this seems to mention the fricatives, just don't have enough occasion to use this word.) Assuming you're tuned into this discussion, feel free to paste this message in there.


 * There are some shewd guesses here, in particular the comment about beginning to speak English every day only toward the end of my plastic period. That's true.


 * Some words and expressions, like "rubbish" and many more that are less appropriate for a TED talk, I've acquired from my Australian wife. She has certainly been an influence on my accent, but it didn't sound "normal" (for either the US or anywhere else) before we met either. Once, to her great annoyance, a waitress assumed she was American, then proceeded to ask me where *I* was from.


 * I'm somewhat chameleon-like with language, and tend to inadvertently acquire phrases and accents when I travel. But there’s an element of choice in this too. I was introverted, bordering on reclusive, as a kid, and spent a lot less time in conversation with people than with books. In my adult life, I’ve spent much of my time with researchers and engineers from around the world, which makes for a wide menu of sounds to mimic. My mimicry is guided, I suppose, by what’s most appealing. By some "cultural synesthesia", or maybe it’s simple association, sounds and qualities go together. It’s hard for me to hear Baltimorese without the John Waters feeling, so it’s unsurprising that there are few Baltimorese sounds in my speech.


 * The result seems indeed to be on the "transatlantic" side-- that is, on no side, or on the outside. I struggle a bit with this, because I value cultural legitimacy a lot, and this synthetic accent is the opposite of legitimate. (For example: love music from around the world, but generally dislike 'world music'.) On the other hand, I feel like in this respect, and in others too, I’ve never had a "real identity", so it’s not clear what the default would be. I've always resisted arbitrary assimilation into some particular group even more than I resist the "fake". Long-winded, but there it is.


 * From Blaise Aguera y Arcas, after being notified of the above discussion by NorwegianBluetalk 17:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ISO_639_Icon_co.svg
Is this some kind of logo for the Corsican language (cf. . Although this is a flag, the design is what I'm talking about.)?174.3.123.220 (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I can see some resemblance between "((co))" (in the file linked in the heading) and the image at A Granìtula..
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 00:11, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * There are hundreds of such icon images at Commons:Category:ISO 639 icons. They are not meant to be national symbols, and I don't particularly understand what the connection with File:ReunionFlag.png is supposed to be... AnonMoos (talk) 03:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)