Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 December 19

= December 19 =

The Tsars spoke French?
From Ruble:
 * "The form "rouble" probably derives from the transliteration into French used among the Tsarist aristocracy."

Why did the Tsars speak French instead of Russian? --75.28.52.27 (talk) 01:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * They spoke French in addition to Russian, not instead of. Most educated "Westerners" spoke at least some French back in the day. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 01:16, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * But why would they use French in practice for anything other than diplomacy? --75.28.52.27 (talk) 01:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Quote from War and Peace


 * Although Tolstoy wrote most of the book, including all the narration in Russian, significant portions of dialogue (including its opening paragraph) are written in French with characters often switching between the two languages. This reflected a reality in 19th century Russian aristocracy, where French, a foreign tongue, was widely spoken and considered a language of prestige and more refined than Russian.[14] This came about from the historical influence throughout Europe of the powerful court of the Sun King, Louis XIV of France, leading to members of the Russian aristocracy being less competent in speaking their mother tongue. In War and Peace, for example, Julie Karagina, Princess Marya's friend, has to take Russian lessons in order to master her native language.


 * It has been suggested[15] that it is a deliberate literary device employed by Tolstoy, to use French to portray artifice and insincerity as the language of the theater and deceit while Russian emerges as a language of sincerity, honesty and seriousness. In the novel, when Pierre proposes to Helene, he speaks to her in French — Je vous aime ('I love you'). When the marriage later emerges to be a sham, Pierre blames those French words.


 * The use of French diminishes as the book progresses and the wars with the French intensify, culminating in the capture and eventual burning of Moscow. The progressive elimination of French from the text is a means of demonstrating that Russia has freed itself from foreign cultural domination.[16] It is also, at the level of plot development, a way of showing that a once-admired and friendly nation, France, has turned into an enemy. By midway through the book, several of the Russian aristocracy, whose command of French is far better than their command of Russian, are anxious to find Russian tutors for themselves.


 * --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   01:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The Italians have a useful word, esterofilia, that I've never known quite how to translate into English. --Trovatore (talk) 02:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * One dictionary suggests xenophilia. —Tamfang (talk) 02:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think in English it would be just plain old code switching. Granted, that doesn't sound half as nice as "esterofilia" :) TomorrowTime (talk) 09:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, no, that's not what esterofilia means. It's more like the line the Lord High Executioner sings about his list of people he might behead when the time comes, one of whom is
 * The idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone
 * All centuries but this, and every country but his own
 * --Trovatore (talk) 21:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not just Russia - the highest military decoration for valour in the Prussian Army (and later the Imperial German Army) was the Pour le Mérite; our article says that it was "founded in 1740 by King Frederick II of Prussia, named in French, the language of the Prussian royal court at the time." Alansplodge (talk) 21:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

French was the language of all European courts and nobility for a long time, even in Britain; exceptions were Hungary, where until the national revival, the court/noble language was Latin, but most also spoke French when dealing with other countries; another was the Ottoman Empire where the Ottoman language was official, though French was usually used for diplomatic audiences at the Sublime Porte; the working language of the palace, though, and many of the military ranks, was Serbo-Croat...not sure about Romania under the Mavrocordato....I think the court language there may have been Greek. Spain seems likely to have been an exception to the French rule, though French was used for diplomacy as with everyone else.Skookum1 (talk) 22:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Please could someone check these changes to the Sanskrit
I have made some changes to the Sanskrit in Buddhahood, amending buddhatva given as बुद् to बुद्धत्व and samyaksambodhi given as सम्यक्संबुद्ध to सम्मासम्बोधी. I am pretty sure the originals were wrong but I have replaced them with my phonetic interpretation of the names in the Latin alphabet. Please could someone with a knowledge of Sanskrit check and correct as necessary. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. I also added American English, British English, and Sanskrit pronunciations of Buddha in IPA. —Angr (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Usage of the word shtick
Hello everybody, I'm struggling to translate the following sentence into German because I dont't know what the word "shtick" means in this context: "On their albumbs, the band often revisits the vaudeville shtick of their grandparents' era."

I thought that shtick is either synonymous with "act", "routine" (of a comedian, for example) or it refers to a particular trait or talent that someone is famous for. But none of these two definitions seems to fit here. Thanks for your help. --84.148.63.238 (talk) 10:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems perfectly cromulent to me. I would say you're spot on with "act" or "routine".  Dismas |(talk) 10:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I think Stil ("style") might be the most appropriate word in this context. Deor (talk) 10:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! It seems these Yiddish words can be used in almost all contexts..;) --84.148.63.238 (talk) 10:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "Masche"? (of Yiddish origin again)! ---Sluzzelin  talk  11:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I always thought it meant 'antics'. And since you are translating into German you can just leave it as shtick since it was originally a German word. Ariel. (talk) 16:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, no, they can't really leave it as shtick. Shtick comes etymologically from the German word Stück, but their meanings are now completely different. Masche may indeed be the closest translation. —Angr (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A German speaker would not understand the Yiddish word (as a Yiddish word, not a German word)? Ariel. (talk) 23:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In my opinion (as a non-German native German speaker) the average German speaker would only know it from its usage in American English, if at all. The set of Yiddish borrowings commonly used in German isn't congruent with the list of English words of Yiddish origin, and the German word "Stück" is never used in the sense of "shtick" either. ---Sluzzelin talk  23:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Right. In fact, I am a German speaker and I had to look up the word in an English dictionary because it only remotely looks and sound remotely like the German "Stück. --87.173.111.244 (talk) 14:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It means "act" or "routine", but it carries a definite connotation of being frivolous and silly. A translation that left out that aspect would not carry quite the right message. Looie496 (talk) 17:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Louie496. I'd add that "shtick" can also have the connotation of being characteristic of a performer (getting hit in the face with a pie was part of Soupy Sales's shtick), and even the connotation of being tiresomely predictable ("ranting about tax cuts is just his usual shtick").  The line the OP quotes about a band could be an approving one (they're playfully reusing music from two generations back) or a dismissive one (they're just coasting along, trying to look cool and ironic with music from 60 years back), depending on the larger context. --- OtherDave (talk) 03:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * As noted in The Joys of Yiddish, "schtick" (or "shtik" as Rosten spells it) actually means "piece" and does in fact derive from "Stück", which appears to also derive from the root of the English word "stick". In show business, "schtick" refers to a "bit of business" or in more general terms a comedy "bit" ("bit" being like a synonym of "piece"). "Vaudeville schtick" would be a broader use of the term. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)