Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 December 27

= December 27 =

Irish pronunciation of the letter "A"
When I lived in Ireland, nearly everybody, including Northern Irish Catholics, pronounced the letter "A" as "aah". The Northern Irish Protestants, howver, pronounced it the British/American way as "Aye". OK, what I want to know is, why did the director in the film Omagh have the man telephoning the bomb warning pronouncing the letter "A" as "aye" rather than "aah" as surely a Northern Irish nationalist would have done?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:57, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe because the director himself is English, and to him "aah" is the name of the letter R (which, incidentally, the Irish pronounce "or" rather than "ar"). Pais (talk) 10:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm..He managed to get the Tyrone accents right. Besides, wouldn't one of the Irish actors have corrected him when he had the actor read Martha Pope as MA(Aye)RTH (I cannot recall whether he said aitch or haitch-must get onto YouTube)A POPE? Had the warner actually said aye instead of aah this should have provided a crucial piece of evidence in the bombing investigation. Actually the Northern Irish pronounce R as a strongly rhotic arrrrr-at least to my ears.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, getting the accents right is more an accomplishment of the actors than the director. I suspect the director thought that "Em - Ah - Ar" might be confusing to non-Irish audience members and so asked the actor to say "Em - Ay - Ar", sacrificing verisimilitude for the sake of wider audience comprehension. (Maybe it's only the southern Irish who call R "or" - but when I was in Dublin I definitely noticed RTÉ announcers calling the name of their station "Or - Tee - Ee".) Pais (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I lived in Dublin myself. Yes, the Dublin pronunciation of the letter "R" is very different from the Northern Irish. You are probably right as regards the caller using "aye" instead of "aah"; however, I was disappointed by this lack of realism in an otherwise frighteningly accurate film depicting the events of 15 August 1998.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Directors (or writers) have been known to compromise on regional speech, presumably in the interests of appeal or comprehensibility to wider audiences. I recall a RomCom set in London with an American leading man and a very English leading woman (somebody like Maggie Smith, but I don't recall who) where she referred to /ə'rɛgənəʊ/ rather than /ɒrɪ'gɑːnəʊ/. --ColinFine (talk) 21:55, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In my experience (Dublin born & bred) most Irish people pronounce the letter Aye while speaking English. I only pronounce it Ahh when spelling in Irish. It's the only letter name I pronounce differently in Irish and English. Stanstaple (talk) 18:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Latin
Can somebody check this link and write out the latin for me and also the Englsih translation too thanks?--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 11:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In standard Latin spelling, Waldemarus Tertius Rex Daniae, Filius Waldemari Secundi; "Valdemar the Third, King of Denmark, son of Valdemar the Second. Pais (talk) 11:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Make out
What does "make out" mean exactly? Its not a phrase used in British english. It has been used in a question, I quote: "I'm just 18 and neither me or my girl really have anywhere we can be, like each other's houses, do to family. I was wondering if it would be considered really crass to make out in the back of a cafe, if it's kind of quiet or there aren't that many people?". Would it be equivalent to snogging? Thanks 92.29.122.99 (talk) 19:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * See article: Making out. When I was in high school back in the 1970s making out really meant "French"-kissing and a heavy amount of fondling and body-rubbing (fully-clothed), but never full intercourse.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "Snogging" means kissing! 69.70.90.70 (talk) 19:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know but I believe making out goes a bit further than just kissing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, making out is certainly fully amorous intercourse, but not yet sexual intercourse, if that's what you mean, Jeanne. If the location had been different, it may well have led to that.  The word "intercourse" has been badly degraded: it once used to mean any kind of contact or relationship between people (social, literary, commercial, platonic personal, sexual personal ...), and I'm sure the namers of Intercourse Island, East Intercourse Island and West Intercourse Island, off Western Australia, were not thinking of sex.  (They're sadly missing WP articles but they're for real.)--   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:49, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Intercourse, Pennsylvania has an article though! It was a popular day trip destination for us back when we were in middle school. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Jack. Between making out and full vaginal sex there is the nebulous, middle realm of dry-humping, which every teenager has done but rarely admits to as it's not considered having scored or done it (as us girls at Venice High used to say).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Frottage.  Corvus cornix  talk  21:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised nobody has chipped in with baseball metaphors for sex here. As a Brit I've never entirely understood these though. Come to think of it, I've rarely needed to use metaphors at all... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:46, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what there is to "understand". It's not like you have to know the infield fly rule or how to execute a safety squeeze &mdash; it's just a list of four rather natural levels of physical involvement. --Trovatore (talk) 08:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (Another Brit writes): I also find them difficult to remember. I can remember that first base is kissing and fourth base is PiV, but I'm hazy on the details of the other two.  I think breasts figure in there somewhere.  I suspect you think they're "natural levels" because you grew up knowing them. Marnanel (talk) 14:02, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, second base is breast-fondling, while third base (which was rather polemic back in the 1970s as some of my high school acquaintances considered this to be when a girl technically lost her virginity) is fingering (with full digital penetration). I must say, as an American, that only us Americans could compare sex to a game of baseball!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ. "Snogging" does not mean "kissing", or not exactly.

I mean, imagine if that poem began "Jenny snogged me when we met". It would be quite a different kind of poem. Marnanel (talk) 00:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I found this scale on a blog:
 * Snogging Scale
 * .5 Sticky Eyes
 * 1 Holding Hands
 * 2 Arm Around
 * 3 Goodnight Kiss
 * 4 Kiss lasting over 3 mins. w/out a breath
 * 5 Open Mouth Kissing
 * 6 Tongues
 * 6.5 Ear Snogging
 * 6.75 Neck Nuzzling
 * 7 Upper body fondling: outdoors
 * 8 Upper body fondling: indoors (in bed)
 * 9 Below Waist Activity (b.w.a.)
 * 10 The Full Monty!!
 * Personally, I would define "snogging", in the strict sense of the word (but no BDSM pun intended) as covering the scale points from about 4 to 7, inclusive. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * @OP: as for your question of whether "making out" is appropriate in a cafe, that depends not only on your definition of making out but also on where you are. In some places public displays of affection are more socially acceptable (e.g. in France it's not uncommon to see people making out and groping each other out in the open in a park in broad daylight, or people having a loud lip-smacking makeout session next to you in an airport waiting area). It also depends not just on the place but also the people&mdash;for example younger people, like high school students, who don't have privacy at home might be more likely to make out in public places (in China I've seen many a very-young couple having awkward elbowy makeouts in KFC, McDonald's, places like that). It's all a matter of perspective. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * THe OP did not ask if making out is appropriate in a cafe. 92.24.187.63 (talk) 10:49, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I misread the question. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:45, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically the same question was asked at the Humanities desk. Just plain "make" has to do with seduction, as noted in the article. Someone who's "on the prowl" or "on the make", as they say. "Making love" is the overall umbrella concept. In the film version of Animal Crackers, there was this line from "Hooray for Captain Spaulding" which was excised from the print and has never seen the light of day since, and the skip in the film remains obvious:
 * Margaret Dumont: "He was the only white man to cover every acre"
 * Groucho Marx (aside): "I think I'll try and make her"
 * Group: "Hooray, hooray, hooray!"
 * ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:14, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It was a different question if you deign to actually read them. 92.29.118.30 (talk) 15:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Differently worded question, but a lot of overlap in the responses. That's why it's best to keep things on one ref desk. Most of the regulars read all the ref desks anyway. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:11, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have any control over the responces, but this question is about what "make out" means, and gives some context by quoting some source text with that phrase in it. The writer of the quoted text already appears to know what "make out" means and is asking something else. If for example I quote a piece of Shakespeare, that does not mean that I am Shakespeare. 92.29.120.235 (talk) 12:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * We've all overlooked the famous umbrella term everything but. This means a couple who's done every sex act known to mankind yet stopped short of doing the Full Monty.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it means "every sexy act known to mankind"...just that you both got naked and touched each other's dirty parts but didn't go as far as putting one dirty part inside another dirty part. It doesn't necessarily mean that you peed on each other or anything. (i'm sure there are grosser sex acts but I don't want to try to imagine them.) At least, that's the usage that seems right to me. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:00, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Chinese questions
I took two photos of bank branches in the Houston Chinatown:

For them, how do I say..
 * File:WellsFargoBeltwayHouston.JPG - now at zh:富国银行集团
 * The Beltway Bank Branch (A bank branch named "Beltway") of Wells Fargo
 * File:ChaseBellaireBeltwayHouston.JPG - now at zh:美國大通銀行
 * The Bellaire and Beltway Bank Branch (A bank branch named "Bellaire and Beltway") of Chase

The bank names "Beltway" and "Bellaire and Beltway" themselves don't have Chinese versions. The streets that they are named after do have Chinese versions.

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I would think "beltway" would have a Chinese translation. You could go with a literal meaning, like "way of the belt", or stick with the real meaning, something like "main road" ? StuRat (talk) 20:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, "Beltway" refers to a road, Beltway 8 - the name "Beltway and Bellaire" refers to Beltway 8 and Bellaire Boulevard. As streets "Bellaire" and "Beltway 8" have Chinese names - they are (see File:BellaireBoulevardBeltway8ChinatownHouston.JPG) WhisperToMe (talk) 20:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to add two more: WhisperToMe (talk) 22:09, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * File:MetroBankDynastyPlazaHouston.JPG
 * "MetroBank bank branch and headquarters in Dynasty Plaza in the Houston Chinatown"
 * File:MetroBankDynastyPlazasign.JPG
 * "Sign for Dynasty Plaza, which houses the MetroBank headquarters and a bank branch"

And also questions on the readings of "大通銀行" (Chase Bank) and "富國銀行" (Wells Fargo) WhisperToMe (talk) 23:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Pin1yin1.com, I found the answer:
 * Chase Bank: Dàtōng Yínháng
 * Wells Fargo: Fùguó Yínháng

dispense
in a video game i play darth vader says "You may dispense with the pleasantries". What is the meaning of dispense in this context? Does it mean to abandon (i.e., he is saying 'At ease') or to begin (he is saying you can start with the pleasantries now). 24.92.70.160 (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Abandon - as in, "don't bother". I'm guessing in a negative context (i.e. don't bother trying to be nice) but I'm not sure. - Jarry1250 [Who? Discuss.] 22:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is a less common use of dispense (arising from the ecclesiastical use of the same Latin verb) meaning to give a dispensation, or to relax an obligation.   D b f i r s   00:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The various words all derive from the Latin dispensare, which means to give out or to administer, and the word has been stretched to having various shades of meaning, including what amounts to "to throw away". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:08, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would think that if he meant "you can start with the pleasantries now" he would say "You may dispense the pleasantries." And I must say, listening to James Earl Jones say that in my head is most enjoyable.  gnfnrf (talk) 04:43, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "Dispense", in fine, is an auto-antonym: it is its own opposite. Many other examples are at the link. Marnanel (talk) 14:08, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, "dispense with" has a somewhat opposite meaning to "dispense" standing alone... AnonMoos (talk) 21:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ... and it is more of a polyseme since the two meanings come from the same root.    D b f i r s   22:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * well, Dbfirs, some auto-antonym are a polysemes, no contradiction here... --Lgriot (talk) 12:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ... yes, I was aware that polysemes are a subset. I meant (and should have written) " ... a more precise classification", though I agree with AnonMoos that the word on its own cannot really have opposite meanings.    D b f i r s   20:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Hence the famous sign in a pharmacy (chemist's): "We dispense with accuracy." With a "not" interposed, then crossed out, then the whole thing crossed out. Close to home for us on the RefDesk ...BrainyBabe (talk) 22:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Similar to discard, in this context. 92.15.4.201 (talk) 20:28, 29 December 2010 (UTC)