Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 December 3

= December 3 =

counter-clerks
Who are they, i.e. what does it mean, in the following sentence: 'to the theatre then they came, an invading army of factory slaves, navvies, guttersnipes, emacited counter-clerks and care-worn women suckling babes in arms'? Thanks. --Omidinist (talk) 06:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably a derisive term equivalent to "desk jockey" or "pencil pusher"; i.e. a middling bureaucrat or middle management. -- Jayron  32  06:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Derisive here, but what it would mean is someone who sits or stands behind a counter and deals with customers as they approach, like a bank teller or a clerk at a government office. Not middle managament.  --Anonymous, 06:33 UTC, December 3, 2010.


 * Would not be hyphenated in modern usage... AnonMoos (talk) 07:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * In this context (from Melodrama by James Leslie Smith according to Google books) a 'counter-clerk' is one of the most junior (and poorly paid, hence the emaciation) of shop workers; someone that serves the public from behind a counter. The quote refers to the huge influx of unskilled rural workers into the city of London during the early industrial revolution.    Blakk   and ekka 13:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. --Omidinist (talk) 15:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The emaciated counter clerks might have been servers of food. I don't know if such positions were commonplace at the time and place. It is probably tough to have to serve food while hungry oneself. Bus stop (talk) 20:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I strongly suspect that prepared food was not served over counters at that time. Cheap food would have been served from wagons and market stalls, slightly less cheap food served at tables in pubs.  I think that the counters in question were shop counters.  The word itself indicates that this was originally an object where items (coins, items of merchandise) were counted.  Typically it was a table or stand at the front of a shop, often a small retail establishment or a workshop from which wares were sold over a counter. The word clerk strongly suggests work that involves writing, such as keeping accounts.  In those days, food service (at the low end) didn't require a "clerk", just someone to dish out the food and collect a few pence. High-end food service would have involved waiters, not clerks.  Marco polo (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually pie shops were common in London from the eighteenth century onwards - never heard of Sweeny Todd? Working women and poor accomodation without kitchens led to an early demand for fast food. Fish & chips and eel, pie & mash followed in the 19th century. But you're right - probably shop assistants are the subject here. Alansplodge (talk) 02:19, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's the real dope. If a counter-clerk encounters a real clerk, they mutually annihilate. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:15, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as clerks are concerned, then, counter-clerks are contra-indicated. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:35, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nineteenth century shops generally did not have open shelves, as they do today. To prevent theft, goods were kept behind a counter and customers asked the clerk at the counter for whatever they wanted.  As you can imagine, being a counter clerk was not a particularly exalted position.  John M Baker (talk) 22:08, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

latin word order for the perfect passive
In Latin, as we all know, word order is very free, but not absolutely so. In the perfect passive, the auxiliary is almost always written last, as in amatus sum, "I have been loved". Can you go sum amatus, or does that come out as a verb (the copula) followed by an adjective, that is, "I am loved" as opposed to "I have been loved" ? Is there a difference between poetry and prose, since word order in poetry is even freer than prose? Thanks, It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It would never make it a present passive, since that is a different form ("I am loved" is "amor", which happens to look like the noun "love"). Normally it would be "amatus sum", but the "sum" could go anywhere, especially if it doesn't confuse the meaning of the sentence, and can be omitted entirely. It is very often omitted in accusative infinitives and other indirect speech where "esse" is used. I will search for some examples. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, of course, there is a very famous one that I think I've mentioned on the Reference Desk before. "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres", the opening line of De Bello Gallico. It sounds nicer in English to take "divisa" as an adjective and say "all Gaul is divided into three parts", but grammatically "divisa est" is a perfect passive, and could literally be translated "Gaul has been divided" or "was divided". If he really meant "is divided", Caesar could have said "dividitur" (but I suppose it was no longer divided that way after his expeditions). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:30, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I see what you are saying. Does that mean sum amatus, and all of its equivalents of the form sum (passive participle), must only be translated, if the translation be literal, as perfect passives, not as adjectives? Your example shows quite sensibly that sum amatus cannot be "I am loved," because that has a different form, amor, but is this a general rule? I always thought the passive participle (ie. past participle passive) had adjectival force in many circumstances, and could be used attributively and predicatively. I'm fairly sure the following is attributive, from the Vulgate: Omne regnum divisum contra se desolabitur. On the other hand, I don't know if I've seen the predicative use, perhaps because I have been invariably confused about whether to read it as a passive perfect or as an adjective, as demonstrated by the original question. It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 21:33, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes, the participle can normally also be used as an attributive adjective, as in your example. If it said "regnum divisum est", it would mean "a kingdom has been divided" (and not "a kingdom is divided"), but as an adjective it can mean "a divided kingdom" (or, more literally, "a kingdom, having been divided"). The participle is used this way ablative absolutes as well, for example "hoc dicto" ("this having been said"). Another example is in the first few lines of the Aeneid, where "iactatus" and "passus" are both used as adjectives. (Actually Virgil doesn't seem to use the perfect passive tense at all until lines 148-149, "coorta est seditio".) Adam Bishop (talk) 17:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again, great answer, It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 23:28, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

What do these mean?
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc498/FFNight/wth1.jpg http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc498/FFNight/wth2.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.113.87 (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * They say you should put your Pokemon to sleep and then try again, if that makes any sense (I've never played these games). -- BenRG (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What, both of them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.113.87 (talk) 23:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. There's a lot of other stuff about how to put them to sleep and how to enter your ID code in various games, but I guessed you probably knew that already. -- BenRG (talk) 23:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess the problem's with my game then. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.113.87 (talk) 23:48, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the first pic says that if you want to access the Pokemon Global Link, you must first put your Pokemon to sleep. The second pic is just telling you to enter your ID. It uses the word 仮登録, which means 'interim registration'. I assume you do not have an account with the Pokemon Global Link, and that they are making a temporary account for you. This is just a guess, of course. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  02:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)