Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 December 30

= December 30 =

French direct objects
I know that in French the direct object pronouns are me, te, le, la, nous, vous, and les, and are placed before the verb. For example, to say 'she likes me' I would said 'elle m'aime'. However, what about direct objects that do not take an article? FOr example, would j'ai faim become je l'ai, je parle français -> je le parle? Thanks. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 15:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * These are clitics. They're not articles; rather, they can replace a noun that was already known in the conversation. For example, if someone asked you tu parles francais ? then you could respond oui, je le parle, but you wouldn't just say it out of the blue.
 * As for j'ai faim, this is really a set expression and isn't as flexible as those other examples. Also, I don't think faim is really an object here. I'm not a native speaker so my intuitions are not perfect, but I don't think you can say oui, je l'ai, even in a context where someone just asked if you're hungry (in that context you'd just say oui or some such). (This probably also has something to do with definiteness; usually a clitic like le is replacing something that's definite.) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 15:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Faim is grammatically a direct object, but the whole phrase "avoir faim" is strongly idiomatic and probably not very divisible (just like "kick the bucket" in English -- you wouldn't normally ask "Did he kick it?" to inquire whether someone had died...). -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the OP is aware that the object clitics are not articles, but is asking how to convert noun phrases that aren't explicitly marked with a definite article into object pronouns. If the noun is clearly definite even without an article (e.g. a personal name), the pronoun is definitely le/la/les, e.g. Est-ce que tu vois Jean? – Oui, je le vois. I'm not sure exactly what do with indefinite nouns, though. How do you answer questions like Est-ce que tu as un biro? or Est-ce que tu as du lait?? Do you say Oui, j'en ai un and Oui, j'en ai? Or something else? I don't know for sure if this is what the OP is driving at, though. Pais (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, en is exactly what you use for objects that are indefinite or quantified. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 23:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, the French for a biro, a ballpoint pen, is "un bic". In France anyway. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:56, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not "la plume de ma tante"? [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * We say: Parles-tu français ?, and: Oui, je le parle, because "le" is omitted in the question. We can say: Parles-tu le français ?. For: As-tu faim we cannot say: oui je l'ai. However, if someone ask: As-tu la faim au ventre ?, you can answer: Oui, je l'ai !; — AldoSyrt (talk) 19:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * How do you answer "as-tu faim", then? Adam Bishop (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oui ! or Oui, j'ai trop faim ! ? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 00:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how related this is to the original question, but the object clitics can be used to refer to indefinite article-less nouns with the copula, where French allows some rather unusual constructions indeed. My French is very rusty, but I'm quite sure that the following exchanges are in correct French: "Êtes-vous américain?  - Oui, je le suis." "Il est espion !   - Non, il ne l'est pas." (I copied these specific examples from the web). I think the explanation is that even an indefinite noun, once mentioned, becomes definite and can be anaphorically referred to with a pronoun meaning "it, that". But, strangely, I'm almost 100% sure that this never works in constructions with verbs other than the copula: you just can't have a conversation like *"Est-ce que tu as une voiture? - Oui, je l'ai." I'm not sure how to interpret this.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 03:26, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure it's too surprising that a partitive pronoun isn't used to refer to a predicative... AnonMoos (talk) 10:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

French question!
"La taille de son excellence étant de la hauteur que j'ai dite, tous nos sculpteurs et tous nos peintres conviendront sans peine que sa ceinture peut avoir cinquante mille pieds de roi de tour; ce qui fait une très jolie proportion." ...

Why is it que j'ai dite instead of que j'ai dit? Where did the "e" come from? I can't find that form in conjugation dictionaries. Or does the book I'm reading have a typo?71.179.23.174 (talk) 22:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)Mme. Micromégas


 * The past participle has to agree in gender and number with the direct object if the latter precedes it. In this case, the direct object is the relative pronoun que which refers to la hauteur which is feminine. Hence dit takes the feminine ending, dite. --Wrongfilter (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * 71.179.23.174 -- The officially "correct" rules about when participles agree and when they don't agree are rather complex, and can trip up native speakers (a frequent source of errors in dictée, etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 01:34, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

"Nothing happen unless first a dream"
(from Carl Sandburg). In what sense is this sentence awkward? Would "Nothing happens unless first a dream happens" be better? Or is simply "Nothing happens unless first a dream" better? Quest09 (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Who has suggested to you that it might be awkward - your teacher? Is this a homework question?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "Nothing" gets a singular verb, so "happens" is correct. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I find this sentence ungrammatical, and supposed there must be a typo in it. In the form "Nothing happens unless first a dream" I found it awkward, but on searching for it I find that it reads "Nothing happen unless first a dream is created", which makes the second half of it normal for me. --ColinFine (talk) 01:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, in prose, you'd need to say, "Nothing happens unless first there is a dream" or something. I was assuming Sandburg was using some kind of poetic license here, but even with poetic license, the verb should agree with the subject. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Could "Nothing happen" be a subjunctive? (Never mind then. See below)---Sluzzelin  talk  01:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The line is, in fact, "Nothing happens unless first a dream". The whole poem can be seen here; the line in question is line 11. Deor (talk) 01:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I read it as "Nothing happens unless first (it is) a dream," which is alright, but a bit telegraphic (or twitteresque). It reminds me of cooking instructions. "Remove sleeve and film. Hold lid firmly, rotate 45 degrees. Throw away if depressed." That sort of thing. 213.122.44.106 (talk) 08:58, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Deor's link doesn't work for me - it gives me (the outside of) volume 144 of Harper's. But with "happens" it is grammatical, and with the sentence ending "unless first a dream" I find it acceptable as poetry, but not as prose. --ColinFine (talk) 11:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)