Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 February 12

= February 12 =

Glass balls with fake snow stuff inside
Hi.

You know those glass balls with fake snow stuff inside. when you shake the orb, it looks like a snow scene.

Could you please tell me what its called?

CheersCuban Cigar (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Nothing fancy - just a snow globe. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I have never heard the term "snow globe", and would call it a "snowstorm", or "snowstorm toy". The OED lists this meaning of "snowstorm" from 1926. I'm off to add it to snow globe ... --ColinFine (talk) 08:40, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response that's what I was looking for.Cuban Cigar (talk) 08:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I should mention that they contain almost the entirety of television history since the early eighties. Marnanel (talk) 17:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that's only one particular snow globe. :)  Woogee (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Meaning
What is newbie fort?174.3.98.236 (talk) 08:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * "Newbie" is colloquial for "new member" (of something), and "hold the fort" is an idiom meaning "carry on doing some job alone". --ColinFine (talk) 08:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ..so, to "hold down the newbie fort" means to carry on looking after the new members alone. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the way the discussion is worded, the "newbie fort" in this case merely consists of the most recent new admin. Once the next new admin comes along, that admin will be holding down the newbie fort and the previous guy will no longer be. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

European Triple Crown
What is the European Triple Crown?174.3.98.236 (talk) 09:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the language reference desk. For sports questions, try the entertainment reference desk. +Angr 12:40, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Based on the dates, they seem to be referring to the Vana Tallinn Trophy, Mountain Cup and ISU International Adult Figure Skating Competition (see Adult figure skating), but the term "triple crown" doesn't seem to be widely used. gerfsc.com doesn't exactly seem to be a serious trustworthy website. --Normansmithy (talk) 16:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of "fisherman"
Why not just "fishman" or "fisher"? We don't say "farmerman", or "sailorman" (OK, maybe we do for this guy). --173.49.16.103 (talk) 13:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Fisher" is in fact "one who fishes". The term "fisherman" is more connected with one who fishes as a profession or a sport. (As per Webster's, 1960). "Seaman" is an alternate term for "sailor". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hardly. "Fisherman" is the generally used term for someone – OK, a man – who fishes, whether it be for fun, sport or work. --Richardrj talkemail 13:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, who should I believe, you or Webster? :) "Fisher" is not an obsolete term, just not used nearly as much, and used more in connection with animals such as the kingfisher bird. I didn't see a "farmer man" or "sailor man" listed. And note that "farmer" and "fisher" refers to humans, while "sailer" is something that sails, while "sailor" refers to humans. That's English for you. Inconsistency. And let's not get into terms like "fishwife". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec) "Fisher" is an older form - remember "fishers of men" in Mark 1:17 - and is of course a fairly common surname. I don't know when it died out in favour of "fisherman". An amusing article here suggests there might be attempts to revive "fisher" as a sex-neutral version. "Fishman" would suggest "fishmonger" to me. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * "Fishman" would suggest Oannes to me... [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * To me it would suggest D.J. Conner. +Angr 14:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It reminds me of The Incredible Mr. Limpet. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:56, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * There is the word washerman. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:19, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * And "pusher man" although I suppose that is always two words. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Just off the top of my head, if someone said they were a fisherman, I would take it to mean someone involved in the fishing industry. An amateur with a rod and line would be an angler. "Fisher" sounds rather Biblical to me. Jobs with "man" in the title were common until the 1970s; postman, policeman, fireman, gas man, insurance man, woodsman, repair man, linesman etc but sound a bit odd now. Alansplodge (talk) 16:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fisher sounds like a weasel to me: Fisher (animal) 75.41.110.200 (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The word fisher is a homophone of the word fissure. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ...for some people. Not for me (RPish British English with the usual Estuary influence). 86.182.209.69 (talk) 23:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If you look around, you can sometimes find "fisherfolk" used to refer to a group of people (typically rather primitive) whose lives center around subsistence-level fishing. Nyttend (talk) 06:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * But a shade archaic. You don't hear that "the fisherfolk of Calais have blockaded the harbour again" do you? Alansplodge (talk) 08:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * A lot of occupation words - and proper names - are derived from commoner occupations: Cooperman (a barrel maker), Fletcher (an arrow maker), Smith (short for blacksmith), Miller (grain worker), huntsman (a hunter).  Originally they probably all would have had 'man' attached (except for female occupations - nurse, washerwoman, maid - which would have had 'woman' or 'maiden' incorporated somehow). whther the word retained the suffix over time probably is a matter of conflicts in usage - 'fisher' is already in use for animals, and sounds too much like fissure, so there's an incentive to retain fisherman; Cooper doesn't have that problem, so Cooper has become more common that Cooperman (though the latter is still kept as a proper name).  -- Ludwigs 2  09:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

English literature
1.how the language of literature differs from ordinary language? 2.The difference between literary language and ordinary language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimit8588 (talk • contribs) 15:51, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Welcome to . Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here to not do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn how to solve such problems. Please attempt to solve the problem yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. No such user (talk) 16:09, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Choose a search engine (or more than one) and search for "literary language". -- Wavelength (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Or even Wikipedia's own article on literary language. +Angr 17:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * To the OP: Question 1 and 2 don't seem to have meaning that isn't common. Don't you think question 2 would be answered if question 1 was answered? You should ask you teacher about this. --Lgriot (talk) 23:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

JFC
What is JFC?174.3.98.236 (talk) 16:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * At a guess, Jesus fucking christ. +Angr 16:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's funny...I always thought his middle name was 'Herschel'.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 18:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The OP could try asking at User talk:65.80.247.100 which is the discussion page of the user who posted the acronym. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * DFT. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 02:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Hugo Grotius latin quote about church history
I am currently reading Anthony Collins' Discourse of the Grounds and Reasons of the Christian Religion (1st ed.), and on page xxx (page xxv on this 1737 Google books edition) in the introduction he mentions a quote from the Epistolae of Hugo Grotius that goes like this: "He that reads ecclesiastial history reads nothing but the roguery and folly of bishops and churchmen." Unfortunately he only gives the reference "Grotii Epistolæ, p. 22" with no information of the edition of the work, which is unfortunate because there apparently exists several works by Grotius which has Epistolae in the title. I am interested in knowing what the original sentence sounded in Latin and specifically if Collins is paraphrasing or making a literal translation. Googling the translated sentence brings up a few hits from an astrology book from 1926 that uses Collins translation (without mentioning him), and citing the quote as being from "22d epistle" rather than page 22. I have found a site containing the correspondence of Hugo Grotius, and they have numbered the letters. No. 22 is this one, but I am not sure if the numbers of the letters on the site corresponds with the one from the earlier editions, or even if it is not an error that they cite epistle 22 instead of page 22 in the earlier reference. My knowledge of Latin does not go beyond some simple word recognition. Are there anyone able to help me in my search for the original sentence? --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The only word in there that could be translated by a single useful Googleable word is "of bishops", so searching for "grotius episcoporum" gives "Qui legit historiam Ecclesiasticam, quid legit nisi Episcoporum vicia?" (or "vitia Episcoporum"). That's pretty much what the English says, and this book says it is "Epistolae, p. 7, col. 1". The link you gave doesn't have this quote so it's not letter 22, but it should be in there somewhere. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Aha, the site you linked to has a search function. It's letter 300, "

Qui Ecclesiasticam Historiam legit, quid legit nisi Episcoporum vitia?" (A more literal translation might be "What does he who reads ecclesiastical history read, except the vices of bishops?") Adam Bishop (talk) 17:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much! I am in awe not only of your thoroughness but also at how fast you were able to answer my question. It looks like Collins has elaborated a bit, but not enough to actually call it a paraphrase of Grotius. Thanks again, I think I will be able to use the quote in related study work, and it is always nice to be able to use the original. --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Mathieu Bastareaud
what is the origin of this guy's surname? It appears to be "bastard" (French bâtard) with water (eau) in it. Is this the real origin? Does it mean illegitimacy? Is it rude? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.43.75 (talk) 19:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Then there's Dan Le Batard. Woogee (talk) 19:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Or William the Bastard, perhaps the most notable of the lot (he really was one). Anyway, while I'm not an expert, my guess is that eau (water) has absolutely nothing to do with Bastareaud; the "eaud" segment seems etymologically unrelated to "water" (eau/aqua)--it may be an augmentative.--Dpr (talk) 23:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This website says: "Origine incertaine, mais le nom pourrait venir du Sud-Ouest (à rapprocher de Basterot, porté en Gascogne). Dans ce cas, il désignerait un lieu où pousse l'ajonc, le genêt épineux (gascon basta)." All we need now is someone who can translate better than I can! Alansplodge (talk) 01:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It means: "Origin uncertain, but the name could come from the Southwest (closely related to Basterot, carried into Gascony).  In that case, it would designate a place where gorse, thorny broom (basta in the Gascon language), grows."
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 05:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. So it probably means "Heath" rather than "Bastard"... Alansplodge (talk) 08:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The French article fr:ajonc corresponds to the English article gorse, and fr:genêt to broom (shrub). Gorse is in the pea family, Fabaceae, but the heath family is Ericaceae. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:56, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was (probably mistakenly) trying to compare it to an English surname. I've never met anyone called Gorse, but "a place where gorse grows" is a Heath, which is a very common English surname (Bastard is not unknown either). Sorry to confuse. Alansplodge (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, there's Bastardi. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 01:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Do countries have gender?
Does it make sense to use personal pronouns like "his" or "her" regarding to countries? (For example, "her national borders") Isn't the correct form to use always "its"? I thought so, but after seeing such usage at some books, I have the doubt. MBelgrano (talk) 21:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It's more usual these days to use "its", but you'll find many older references to countries being female. For example, the Australian poem My Country. (Another FAQ for our list, but damned if I can find the earlier times this was asked.)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   22:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's here Excellent poem Jack. I've got the vaguest recollection of reading it before; it's not well known here, but should be. Alansplodge (talk) 23:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * (EC) The feminine personal pronoun (she, her) is very often used in place of 'its'. I have not once in my lifetime heard anyone say 'the people of Germany fought hard to defend his national borders against the Soviet onslaught' even though it was referred to as a 'Fatherland' and not a 'Mother Country'. 'His' just sounds ridiculous here. --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( A word...? )  22:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * (EC) Given that sex sells, and that it's usually the men who you want to go to war for your contry, it's not surprising that national personifications through all ages were predominantly female. Heck, even a man-of-war was considered female! What I don't understand, though, is why in America an old uncle turned out to be much more successful than his female counterpart. &mdash; Sebastian 22:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it that puzzling? An avuncular, kindly old chap kind of seems appealing to soldierly types (who apparently first coined, or popularized, the name)--Dpr (talk) 23:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not what I would have thought, but it seems true; it works for John Bull, too. Maybe my premise was wrong, and sex doesn't sell as well. A glance at the table in national personification reveals that there are just about as many male personifications as female: 30 male, 37 female, 4 groups, 8 animals, and 4 that I wasn't sure of. &mdash; Sebastian 23:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Can't we distinguish a concept of a nation from the personification thereof--in other words, popular imagery might use a masculine personification (Uncle Sam) but in language patriots might apply feminine attributes and pronouns to the same country (e.g. "Fight for America...defend her purity" or somesuch)...--Dpr (talk) 23:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

thumb|right
 * That's sort of what I had in mind. Of course, it helps that "America" is a grammatically a female word. But the distinction is very fuzzy; it's not impossible to say "Fight for Uncle Sam ... defend his honor!"; for all I know some countries which only have a masculine personification might say that and be no less motivated to fight. That said, clearly the ship wearing World Power cutie is much more inspiring for a good fight than The Good Soldier Švejk. &mdash; Sebastian 00:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "it helps that "America" is a grammatically a female word"? In some languages, nouns ending in -a are more or less automatically feminine, but that isn't so in English.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   00:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of different countries and languages, not just the US. In English, the concept of "grammatical gender" doesn't apply so well; all that remained are the personal pronouns. But you can look at perceived natural gender instead. I had male coworkers whose name ended in "-a", and everyone assumed they were female. Similarly, it would feel odd if you named your son "Australia", while "Ozzy" would work. ;-) &mdash; Sebastian 00:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never even heard of a girl being named "Australia". I've heard of France, India, Canada and America being given to children.  And Dakota.  Any more?  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   01:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * See below - Columbia, although that's a different country ;-). Anyway, if you heard the name "Australia Smith", would you assume its a man or a woman? &mdash; Sebastian 01:43, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's Colombia, and the Colombians I've known (not many, but some) insist their country is pronounced the way it's spelt, -LOM-, not -LUM-. "Australia Smith" - hmm, probably a female.  You'd be just as likely to come across an "Australia Nguyen" or an "Australia Mavropoulos" these days.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   01:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, you're right, of course! As an excuse, in 42 languages (taken from the interwiki links), it looks like it is pronounced like "LUM", too. (But 80 languages have "LOM".) &mdash; Sebastian 03:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny that the only person given the first name Columbia who became notable enough for Wikipedia was Columbia Lancaster (1803–1893), a male. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   23:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * you're forgetting The Rocky Horror Picture Show -- Ludwigs 2  23:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The German names of most countries are neuter. (See German Grammar: Neuter Nouns.) -- Wavelength (talk) 00:30, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * German doesn't count - it's weird that way:
 * "Gretchen:   Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
 * Wilhelm:   She has gone to the kitchen.
 * Gretchen:    Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
 * Wilhelm:    It has gone to the opera."
 * &mdash; Sebastian 00:45, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The other interpretation of this question could be, do countries procreate? ~ A H  1 (TCU) 01:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, there's Mother Russia and Little Russia, not to mention Great Britain and Little Britain - but I sort of doubt either of these is what the questioner was after. --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   02:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Translating "have sex" to "procreate" reflects old-fashioned thinking. A better translation of the question is: Do countries screw each other? The obvious answer to that is: "Yes, all the time." --173.49.14.67 (talk) 16:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I think one should distinguish personifications of the country itself (Britannia, Columbia, Mother Svea) and of its citizenry and/or government (John Bull, Uncle Sam): the lead of the national personification article also mentions the distinction. The difference is very obvious in the British case, where we have both types of personifications. The country personification is usually feminine, the citizenry/government personification is usually masculine. "Fight for Uncle Sam, defend his honor" would hardly work IMO, neither would "Fight for John Bull". I think "sex sells" is part of the explanations, as men in human society are more likely to identify a woman as something associated with "home", something "theirs", something loved and "something to die for". Another related aspect is that land, earth, and nature are more often perceived as feminine (and motherly, fecund etc) in mythology, so is a "home country". As for the contrast between "Motherland" and "Fatherland", I don't think it's a counterexample. IMO, while "Motherland" is, in a way, "The Land that is our Mother", a "Fatherland" is more like "the Land of our Fathers/Forebears"; compare Latin patria, which is derived from pater ("father"), but is itself a feminine noun.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 12:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC)