Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 7

= January 7 =

Nazi
What does the word Nazi, mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.26.81 (talk) 03:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * See Nazism for details. --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( Talk? )  03:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * From the top of this page: "Is there a way to get a faster answer? Yes, you can search first. Please do this. Entering search terms in the box to the left may locate useful articles in Wikipedia." r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 03:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Personal names in poorly attested languages
Reading articles about ancient dead languages, I often find that a large part of their corpus is made by inscriptions listing personal names. Now, I'd like to find some references, as complete as possible, about given names expecially in Etruscan (it would be amazing to find a list of Latin/Etruscan correspondences), Vandalic (≈140 names seems to be attested) and Burgundian ("Some proper names of Burgundians are recorded"). I'd also love to find informations about: Oscan, Ligurian ("Very little is known about this language, mainly place names and personal names remain"), Faliscan and Messapian ("Messapian and Illyrian is based mostly on personal names found on tomb inscriptions and on classical references"). --151.51.19.249 (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know how reliable this is, but here is a list of Etruscan names. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:18, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind that, because of the close association of the Etruscans and Romans over centuries, Latin certainly borrowed/adopted a number of Etruscan words (e.g. anima), probably including some personal names, and the reverse may well have occurred: in some cases it might be quite hard to determine which, if either, has occurred. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Sometimes you can tell Etruscan names in Latin because they end in an "a" vowel, yet refer to males... AnonMoos (talk) 00:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Help with rewriting this
I found this in the article Black powder in gas pipelines: "Black powder collects in gas piping that is mostly mill scale, from new sales gas pipeline, flash rust from hydrotest water, post internal pipeline corrosion, and could be carryover from gas gathering lines." I'm not sure how best to improve it, would anyone like to have a go please? 78.146.234.221 (talk) 15:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like it's too many ideas being crammed together. Dividing them into several sentences (and then editing accordingly) might help. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 15:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Before the edit conflict I added that it is disturbing because grammatically speaking the phrase "mill scale" refers to the gas pipe, but context indicates that this phrase refers to the black powder. The succeeding list of attributes is ambiguous - it is unclear if it refers to the powder or the pipe. 78.146.234.221 (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Italian in Assassin's Creed 2
So, some background for those of you linguistically-inclined types who aren't also into video games: this game takes place in Renaissance Italy and there's a fair amount of spoken Italian dialogue thrown in throughout.

One of the things that I've wondered about is how accurate the Italian is. I don't speak Italian at all outside of a few musical terms, so I have no way to gauge. However, some things about the dialogue did strike me as a bit ... strange. My guess is that the writers actually did some research into the Italian language during the Renaissance, but I don't know if that's really true or not.

The big thing that jumped out at me was the use of the honorific "Messer" and (I assume) its shortened version "Ser". For example, the hero, Ezio, is often called "Messer Ezio" or "Ser Ezio". I've looked up this word and I can't find any evidence of it currently being an honorific in Italian (the article on Italian honorifics makes no mention of it at all), and other searches I've done don't turn up anything about it having been one in older times.

Can anyone shed some light on this? Were these honorifics actually used during the Renaissance, or did the writers just make up some crap?Dgcopter (talk) 16:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "Messer" is the shortening of "Messere". It's actually a legitimate Italian word. It means "honorary title once given to jurists, judges and often extended to other people". It comes from Old French and ancient Provencal "mes sire" (XIII sec.), meaning "my sire/lord". (From "Dizionario Etimologico della Lingua Italiana - Zanichelli") It's extensively used in the Decameron (messer Ricciardo da Chinzica, messer Can della Scala, messer Ermino de' Grimaldi, messer Francesco Vergellesi, messer Guiglielmo Rossiglione, messer Guiglielmo Guardastagno), which take place in 1348. I think it's usage was common during all the Renaissance. It's very common to heard this title in Italian movies set during the Renaissance. (PS:I'm Italian!) "Ser" can be considered a shortening of "Messere", but it has a different history. It's the shortening of "Sere", that comes directly from Latin "senior" (from "senex", old), just like in modern Italian "Signore"/"Signor". The Old French "sire" (in "mes sire") has the same etymology. By the way, Ezio is a real Italian name (still used). It comes from the Latin name Aetius, probably derived from Greek aetos, eagle.--151.51.19.249 (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In modern French, "monsieur" and "messieurs". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was the "Frenchiness" of the Italian honorifics that stuck me as odd, I think. But 151's very helpful response has cleared things up.  Bonus points for the extra info about the etymology of the hero's name -- very appropriate in context, it turns out.  Thanks, all!   Dgcopter (talk) 17:30, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Presumably the Spanish "señor" and the English-from-Latin "senior" are also related? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note also the modern Italian title Monsignor. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Older forms of French and Italian were still pretty similar (of course there is a sprachbund, so Provencal and northern Italian dialects are very similar, especially back then). By the time period of the Assassin's Creed game, there was also a lot of French influence in Italy, and the French invaded at the end of the 15th century, so Italian could have picked up French-ish words and phrases then. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:37, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The above has answered a question I've often been puzzled about. In the series CSI:NY there is a character named Danny Messer who has Italian antecedents. I'd always wondered why someone of Italian extraction has what appeared to me to be a German surname (from Messer, meaning "knife"). That's cleared that one up. Thanks, all. Tonywalton Talk 21:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Provided "Messer" is actually used as a last name in Italy and not just as a (now obsolete) title. It's possible Danny Messer's ancestors come from South Tirol and thus have a German surname (just like the Italians Werner Heel, Christof Innerhofer, and Isolde Kostner). Or maybe he's (say) seven-eighths Italian-American, but his father's father's father was German-American, supplying him with a German last name. +Angr 00:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * IIRC, Assassin's Creed 2 is set in Venice. Venetian is really it's own dialect, and was certainly different in Renaissance times. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that an Langue d'Oc word like Sire would likely have a cognate in Veneto. Steewi (talk) 02:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Kau
In the article it mentions Kau being an "Asian last name" with a fact next to it. From a search on the Internet, it appears that the character is 丘. "Kau" is certainly not the Mandarin Chinese pronunciation; I would like to know what language/dialect Kau is in.  bibliomaniac 1  5  19:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * wikt:丘 gives transliterations for Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese. The Vietnamese looks the closest to what "kau" might be; Korean and Cantonese are kinda-sorta. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Transliterations can be quite varied. The Putonghua version of Kau (if it is originally from Wade-Giles) is Gao (高), as in Gao Gang. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Combinations of sounds that are hard to pronounce
I'm talking English here. And native speakers.

I had occasion to use the words "plinths" recently, and it struck me how difficult it is to get to the end of word fully pronouncing each element. (I suppose one could cheat and say "plin-ss", but let's assume we're all purists here.) The singular "plinth" is relatively easy, but as soon as the -s is added, it turns it into a challenge. It seems to be that "th" and "s" are not good friends: "The two Ruths studied Thoth the Goth's myths about the deaths of moths" - shudder. Is there any other combination of sounds that's as hard for native speakers to pronounce as this? --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That sort of thing isn't really objectively qualifiable, but of course you can make it harder by adding more consonants on either side of the "th"+"s" cluster. Try saying "Sixth Street" ten times without dropping any consonants. +Angr 21:04, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Speaking of 'sixth', it has always annoyed me when newsreaders on the BBC pronounce it as 'sickth'. --  KageTora - (影虎)  ( Talk? )  21:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You might find some other combinations at 1st International Collection of Tongue Twisters. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The issue is the consonant clusters in syllable coda position--no languages like having clusters there. "Sixths" is, as pointed out above, an example of that--it has four consonant sounds in the end, but many people don't actually pronounce all of them. (I think there is some example in English with 6 consonants on the end, but I don't remember it off the top of my head.) r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 21:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Borschts", although that's only debatably English. "Rhythms", typographically, has seven consonants at the end (and indeed at the beginning), but it only has four real consonants.  There are quite a few common English words with five consonants at the end - "strengths", "lengths", etc. Tevildo (talk) 22:27, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I mean phonemes, though, not letters; "strengths" and "lengths" only have three. Whatever I'm thinking of that had six, I remember it was just a pretty cheap variation on "sixths" or something like that (and also something that was only debatably English). r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 22:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) And again those examples include the -ths- cluster. It may go some way to explaining why certain countries say "math" instead of "maths". -nths- is even worse; rhythms, borschts and sixths are all pieces of cake to pronounce compared to plinths, not to mention creme de menthes (only tossers would say cremes de menthe). --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 23:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And fortunately there's not much call to use the word "sevenths". --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 23:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You really think "plinths" is harder than "sixths"? Are you pronouncing all the consonants in "sixths"? (/sɪksθs/) r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 00:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Musicians talk about sevenths all the time. As for "rhythm", it has no consonant cluster in the pronunciation at all: don't be misled by the spelling, it's pronounced with a definite schwa between the "th" and the "m", so its plural  is no more challenging than "bottoms". +Angr 00:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I know what it is. Sevenths, elevenths, thirteenths, and Corinths are all hard, but plinths and menthes are harder because the stress is on the immediately preceding vowel.  Why this should make a difference escapes me, but it seems to.  Thirteenths could be stressed on either the first or second syllable, but it's easier for me to say when stressed on the first.  All these -nths- words are an order of magnitude harder for me to say than sixths (including all the consonants: sik-s-th-s). Jack of Oz = 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:57, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And yet we use the word "months" all the time and never bat an eyelid. Maybe it's just a psychological barrier, but plinths is definitely more difficult to pronounce than months.  That's me, anyway.  (Good exercise for a speech pathologist to dish up: Three months worth of Corinthian plinths.) --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you surreptitiously recorded 10 (or however many you want) American English speakers saying "months", I'd bet my house that they tend to pronounce it [mʌns]. (that is to say, they drop the "th".) I know I do. There are some coarticulation effects of the "th" (for me, the [s] is pulled forward a bit and is "toothy"), but it's not actually pronounced. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 02:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And you'd probably win the bet too. We (Americans) do tend to say "muns" (maybe with a bit of a "t" sound) for "months". L&#9786;g&#9786;maniac chat? 23:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Another American (Brooklyn, specifically) handling of the -ths group is shown in the scene in My Cousin Vinny where Pesci uses the word youths and Fred Gwynne asks "What's a yute?" Deor (talk) 11:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * But th-stopping is part of the stereotypical New York accent even when the th isn't next to an s. In other words, Pesci's character presumably would have pronounced singular "youth" as "yute" as well. +Angr 13:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In London, it's common for people to say "heightth" instead of "height" (I suppose so that it conforms to "breadth"). Alansplodge (talk) 14:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You get "heightth" in Australia sometimes, too. But nobody ever says "weightth".  Funny how the ordinal 8th is spelt "eighth" - as if it were pronounced ayth rather than its actual pronunciation ayt-th.  I guess I should never be surprised by English spelling, but that one always struck me as particularly odd.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Presumably because "eightth" would look funny. AnonMoos (talk) 00:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The hardest combination I know to say repeatedly is "toy boat". Standing alone it's no problem but try saying it many times in a row at any speed. It's impossible.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have too tough a time with that one. But how about "she sells seashells by the seashore". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Worst for me was always big black bugs bleed blue blood (can't even type it without messing up). Although by now we've strayed pretty far afield of the original question... r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 01:36, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Hear Samples of Spoken Languages Online
Where can I hear spoken samples of world languages, online? - Vikramkr (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If all you want is individual words, you can try Peter Ladefoged's Sounds of the world's languages, which has files organized both by language and by sound (i.e., words with /d/, words with /x/, etc.). <b class="Unicode">r ʨ anaɢ</b> talk/contribs 23:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Here are four relevant links.
 * Logos Dictionary
 * LOGOS - Multilingual Translation Portal
 * Forvo: the pronunciation guide. All the words in the world pronounced by native speakers
 * LanguageGuide: Foreign Language Vocabulary, Grammar, and Readings
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 00:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)