Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 13

= July 13 =

Pronunciation of “Asperger”
What is the pronunciation of “Asperger” – the scientist or the syndrome – in Germany Standard German? Educated guesses are welcome. Citable pronunciation dictionaries (from Germany) and medical dictionaries (Germany) would be better. The best sources would probably be people who know how the man's acquaintances/peers/students (from Germany) pronounced his name – in the hope that the surname and the syndrome share the same pronunciation. (I have already e-mailed a few sources that I thought might tell me whom to ask, only to receive no reply.) I don't need the pronunciation in Austrian Standard German, in English nor in his own idiolect if it differs from the wider GSG pronunciation. Also, I don't need stress information and can probably do without syllable breaks. It's not a matter of life and death, I'd just use it to transcribe the name into another language that uses a system seemingly based on GSG for transcriptions from German (including non-Germany names), so please don't put too much effort into it. Thank you. --84.46.70.55 (talk) 00:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) [ˈʔᴀsˌpʰɛɐ̯gɐ] — Ạspärger (I'm a native speaker, and this one seems most likely to me.)
 * 2) [ˈʔᴀːsˌpʰɛɐ̯gɐ] — A̲h̲ßpärger
 * 3) [ˈʔᴀːˌʃʷpʰɛɐ̯gɐ] — A̲h̲-schpärger
 * 4) [ˈʔᴀˌʃʷpʰɛɐ̯gɐ] — Ạschpärger
 * 5) [ˈʔᴀspˌʔɛɐ̯gɐ] — Ạsp-ärger
 * 6) [ˈʔᴀspʰɐˌgɛɐ̯] — Ạsper-gär
 * 7) other (please specify)


 * You can listen to http://www.forvo.com/word/hans_asperger#de. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The word's not listed in the Duden Aussprachewörterbuch, but using Duden's transcription method, it would be (a broad transcription), since Duden doesn't transcribe  at the beginning of a word. German doesn't have the sound, which is why Germans often replace it with [a] when speaking English. The first syllable break is between the [s] and the [p], but I don't think the [p] is aspirated; certainly not as much as at the beginning of a word, so it's not necessary (or desirable) to indicate aspiration even in a narrow transcription. Duden always shows [r] rather than  in the syllable coda after a short vowel, but many speakers do vocalize the r there, so transcribing the second syllable as  is also correct. So, any of , ,  or  is correct, depending on whether you want to transcribe word-initial  and how you want to treat coda r after a short vowel. +Angr 05:52, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Asperg is the name of a town; I'd bet that (or a similarly named place elsewhere) is the origin of the name.--Cam (talk) 13:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

(OP=) Thank you all! Would be nice if the speaker in Wavelength's link said how he came up with that pronunciation, but it's good to know that website exists. Angr, thanks for the detailed information, especially since I still find it difficult to identify the extent of aspiration, or the lack thereof, in “standard” pronunciation – I'm fairly sure I don't aspirate the bilabial after [ʃʷ] in my own speech. Since the pronunciation you offer seems identical to that of the speaker on that site, I'm not sure if you tried to IPAze for me what we hear there (as your indentation would imply), or if it's your own guess/knowledge independent from Wavelength's link. (BTW I purposely used non-IPA [ᴀ], not [ʌ], to write the sound halfway between [a] and [ɑ].) Thanks Cam, I should've thought of that.

If there's nothing else, I will just go with the pronunciation to which Wavelength has kindly linked and which Angr has kindly described in more detail than I need for my purpose. --84.46.35.179 (talk) 19:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't listen to the file Wavelength linked to, I was just going by the Duden pronunciation dictionary and my own knowledge of German phonetics. Now I can see the difference between [ᴀ] and but at first I didn't see it. +Angr 19:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * (OP) I see. While I do have some knowledge of German phonetics myself, I thought it possible there might be some counterintuitive pronunciation because it's a proper name, and I hadn't ever heard it pronounced in German. --84.46.26.195 (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Im looking for a word
hey guys, it's me again. I have a chronic case of "Tip of the tongue" ;) and there's a word I can't quite put my finger on. I'm looking for an adverb to finish the sentence: "No blood is spilt _____, which is spilt by my hand". Ive considered "unjustly" and "unfairly", but those don't quite fit. The blank should contain a word meaning "wrongly" (as in morally wrongly) or "evilly", but those words don't fit either. Any ideas? Thanks. 68.76.157.124 (talk) 16:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)Larry
 * Unjustifiably? Nefariously? Reprehensibly? Shamefully? Villanously? Iniquitously? There are lots of possibilities. Deor (talk) 17:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Wantonly. That combines the idea of extravagance with the idea of immorality, and is often found in the phrase "wanton cruelty", and "blood is spilled wantonly" sounds like a satisfying cliche to me. There's plenty of other options, though: inequitably? Wickedly? 81.131.17.165 (talk) 17:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "No blood is spilt in vain, which is spilt by my hand"? --Zerozal (talk) 14:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

S-Audi Arabia and Slova-Kia
How many countries of the world have names of automobile brands inside their names? --84.61.131.18 (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You could start with List of car brands and see how many of them qualify. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Or it would be a lot less work to start with list of countries, if you knew all the car brands, but there are a lot of them!--Shantavira|feed me 17:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If the OP is really that interested, he could take those two lists and compile a single list himself. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sao Tome and Principe. 'Guy'ana. In Spanish Dina-marca (Spanish for Denmark). --Soman (talk) 17:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I couldn't resist: Do[mini]ca, [Ka]zakhstan.--Shantavira|feed me 17:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Those are models, not brands. That makes the job harder. 213.122.4.173 (talk) 18:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * According to List of Eastern European cars, there was an early 20th century Czech car brand called just "Z", so every country with a Z in it is covered. That's 19 countries, by my count. Also on list of U.S. cars I discovered the old brand "Republic", which gets rid of at least another 6 countries. Perhaps this is not entirely in the spirit of the question. 81.131.69.40 (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, here's the rest:

Albania: Alba (1907 automobile). Australia: Austral (1907). Brazil: ZiL. Faroe islands: ARO. El Salvador: Alva (1913 automobile). Martinique: Martini (cars). Réunion: Union (1903-1905). Clipperton island: Clipper (1956). Georgia: Geo (1989-1997). Guyana: Guy Motors (1914-1968). Jordan: Jordan (1917-1931). Kazakhstan: Kaz. Macedonia: Ace (1920 automobile). Madagascar: AGA (automobile) (1919-1929). Malta: Alta Car and Engineering Company and Alta (vehicles). Marshall Islands: HAL (automobile). Federated States of Micronesia: Micro (car). Monaco: NAC. Nepal: PAL. New Zealand: Aland (automobile). Ross Dependency: Ross (automobile company). Palau: PAL again. Madeira: MADEI. Romania: Roman_(vehicle_manufacturer) - from Romania. San Marino: San. Saudi Arabia: Arab (automobile) (1926-1928) and Audi. Vojvodina: DINA S.A.. Slovakia: Kia. Spain: SPA (automobile). Swaziland: ZiL again. Tanzania: Anzani. United Arab Emirates: Arab again. United Kingdom: King (automobile). Wales: Ales (1921 Automobile). Falkland Islands : F.A.L. Gibraltar: Alta again. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands : San again, Geo again. America: America (automobile) ... made in Spain ... Northern Mariana Islands: Northern (automobile) (1902-1908). Uruguay – Eastern Republic of Uruguay: Aster (automobile) (1922-1930). Karakalpakstan: ALP (automobile) (1920). I left out the ones with less than three letters. 213.122.7.43 (talk) 00:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * ........ that deserves a barnstar of some kind. Good God. so  nia ♫♪ 10:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

What about Ger-MAN-y, O-MAN and Ro-MAN-ia? --84.61.131.18 (talk) 15:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh well if you want to include truck manufacturers, there's also ThAILand and SPAin. Those were the only new ones I found, out of 166 truck brands. 213.122.25.117 (talk) 16:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Learning Latin Vocabulary
Hello everyone! I have recently started studying latin, and the grammar is coming along well. However, I am having a lot of problems with building up my latin vocabulary, and have decided that the best way to beef it up would be to start with frequency lists. The problem is that I have been unable to find any online. Could someone post a link to a site with a good frequency list of latin words by lemma? It would also be nice if I could get some frequency lists for specific parts of speech (e.g. list of nouns, verbs, etc...)Thanks in advance. Rabuve (talk) 19:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You could consider the http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_prima. Automatically, you will recognise frequently used words.  If you read the identical article in English and in Latin, you will be able to "deduct" the meaning of new words out of the context.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * See http://www.textkit.com/vocabulary/. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:38, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Intratext website has frequency lists, like for Virgil for example, although the words aren't translated. I don't know if this can be done online. Do you have a textbook? Wheelock's Latin has enormous lists of vocabulary, and stories of increasing difficulty (as do other textbook series, I'm sure). In my experience, the best way to learn Latin vocabulary is to just read a whole shitload of Latin, nothing but Latin, constantly...it would probably help if you're the kind of person who thinks that is fun, though. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:44, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "homage"
I'm hearing more and more people saying "o-MAHZH", as if they're using the French word "hommage". I hear this particularly in popular music contexts ("This album was written in o-MAHZH to his former girlfriend, Shelby Applebaum"). What's going on? English has long had the "HOM-ij" pronunciation. Why is it being dumped all of a sudden? Or, if they're actually using a French word in the middle of an English sentence, why would they do that? Is it just copy-cat pig-ignorance, or is there a better explanation? --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've always heard it as a hybrid - 'OM-ij'. Or was that an 'ybrid..... --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  20:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't want your 'omage, we already 'ave our own 'ommage! Fetchez la vache! ;-) 78.43.71.155 (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * AH-midge. Rimush (talk) 22:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There's an explanation of sorts at Homage. The "o-MAZH" French pronunciation (usually a noun) is a specific, narrow reference to a stylistic tribute to an artist created through a deliberately derivative work ("his latest work Melody in Cerise is an hommage to Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue") whereas "HOM-ij" or "AH-midge", etc. is the more general, traditional term for formal respectful acknowledgement ("he observed the two minutes' silence every year in homage to his fallen comrades").   The former may well be italicised, presumably to emphasise its difference from the latter, and often uses the French spelling, whereas the latter is not italicised.  However, there does seem to be a lot of crossover in how the two are being used if you Google it.  Ka renjc 00:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Right. I should have checked that first.  Thanks, Karenjc.  But I still wonder why anyone ever felt it necessary to make the distinction between a general homage and this specific 'hommage'.  It could still be true to say that a particular 'hommage' was done in homage to something or someone; which is very fertile ground for confusion.  I've usually heard 'hommage' used not as a type of derivative work, but in the phrase "in hommage to", so I can confirm there's a cross-over happening.  This is not progress imo, but an unnecessary blurring and a confusion of a long accepted English word with a previously virtually unknown French word.  No good can come of it.  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The third speaker at http://www.forvo.com/word/homage/, a male from the United States, gave three pronunciations. If I had an account on that website, I might want to submit a notice of correction.  The French-sounding pronunciation was denounced impolitely in a comment at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4184266. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The ones who like to say "oh-MAHZH" might be the same ones who like to say "Tah-ZHAY". :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

In this case, I think it's clear that the Frenchified pronunciation "o-MAHZH" is more recent than the Anglicized pronunciation "HOM-ij" (itself probably a spelling pronunciation; I bet "OM-ij" was the usual pronunciation 400 years ago, but I don't know for sure). That's certainly the case with "ka-LAY" for Calais, which has now completely ousted "KAL-is" as the name of the town in France (though Calais, Maine, is still "KAL-is"). But with other words, it's not so clear. Garage is Frenchified "ga-RAHZH" in the U.S. and either Anglicized "GARR-ij" (to rhyme with carriage) or Frenchified "GA-rahzh" in the UK, and of the three I really don't know which is oldest in English. It was only borrowed about 100 years ago, so I suspect the two Frenchified pronunciations are the oldest. At any rate, the answer to Jack's question, I suppose that homage is a word most people more often see written than hear spoken, so they have to guess at a pronunciation. If they don't notice that it's spelled differently from French hommage, they assume it's a recent loanword to be pronounced as Frenchly as possible. +Angr 15:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * GARR-ij must have been adopted as an early pronunciation in UK English, even though it only dates from around the turn of the last century; by my childhood some 50 years ago the word had been successfully passed in turn to Welsh, where it's pronounced GAR-ej, and formally spelt garej. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 20:41, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In London it's GARR-idj. GA-rahzh is considered un peu prétentieux. Using French words in an Enlish sentance? Quelle horreur!. Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems you spell French better than you spell English, Alan (Enlish? sentance? Quelles horreurs, indeed!). :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In my part of the US, "garage" is usually pronounced "guh-RODGE". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? So, "Rogers' Garage" would sound like "RODGE-uhz guh-RODGE"? Or maybe RAH-juhz guh-RODGE"?  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:50, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The original set of questions reminded me of Major question about Niger. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:57, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew help
In regards to this image File:CongregationBrithShalom.JPG - In the Hebrew description I placed the "Brith Shalom" part, but there is more Hebrew text before that. What are the characters for the Hebrew text typed in? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is . The first word is "I remembered", but it's not clear to me what the second word is - "bread" doesn't seem to fit, and I don't know if there is some derivative the root meaning "to fight". Or it might be  meaning "to them". Perhaps somebody else can elucidate. --ColinFine (talk) 23:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The phrase is וכרתי להם ברית שלום. The source is the Biblical book Ezekiel chapter 37 verse 26 and it means " And I will make a covenant of peace with them. Simonschaim (talk) 04:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! I updated the description of the file, noting what the Hebrew means WhisperToMe (talk) 05:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Cherokee help
What is the Cherokee of the File:Cherokee Central Schools.jpg image typed in? Also would someone mind posting a description in Cherokee that matches the English description? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 22:51, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For your second request, please see Category:User chr. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In your first question, are you asking about the dialect, the typeface, or something else?—Wavelength (talk) 23:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The image is used in the article Cherokee Central Schools where the alternate language name is shown as (Cherokee: ᏣᎳᎩ ᎫᎾᏕᎶᏆᏍᏗ ᏚᏓᏥᏍᎬᎢ) which matches the sign. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 00:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * [That article does not have a link to a page of http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ᎤᎵᎮᎵᏍᏗ. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:24, 14 July 2010 (UTC)]


 * You might find http://www.native-languages.org/cherokee.htm to be helpful.—Wavelength (talk) 01:41, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was asking on how to type the characters in. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You would need to load and/or activate a Cherokee character set on your computer. Two Cherokee character sets come with my version of Mac OS X. If you have a Mac, click on the apple icon in the upper left corner, then on System Preferences, then on International, then on Input Menu.  You will get a list of character sets, including the Cherokee one.  At the top, click the "Keyboard Viewer" box, which will allow you to see how the characters are mapped to your keyboard.  Then click the version of Cherokee that you would like to activate.  Now, the Cherokee flag (or the icon that they use to suggest a Cherokee flag) will appear in the top menu bar on your screen, or it will be an option beneath the flag that now appears there (probably the US flag if you are in the United States).  If you click on the flag that is there, you can scroll down and click on "Show Keyboard Viewer" to see how your current character set is mapped to your keyboard.  Or you can click on a different flag (or go back to the US flag) to change your current character set.  If you are running Windows or Linux, I would hope that it comes with and/or can accommodate different character sets, but I do not know how that would work for Windows or Linux.  Marco polo (talk) 13:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I saved the instructions to a file on my computer. Thank you very much! WhisperToMe (talk) 22:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)