Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 21

= July 21 =

DALF French language exams
If you take the DELF/DALF exams to prove your French language level, do you have to start at the bottom with level A1? Or can you just pick the hardest one you think you would pass? What does it cost? 86.144.113.85 (talk) 00:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * no, you can just take the DALF C1 or C2 from the gitgo, as I did. (I took the C1, twice, first passing then failing).  You don't need to do anything in between. 84.153.179.98 (talk) 09:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

ノルウェイの森
Could anyone provide a translation of the dialogue in the short trailer to the upcoming film adaptation of Norwegian Wood? It is located here. Thanks! (talk) 01:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I am guessing you mean the single sentence the actor says after the song has finished? In which case, he says 'That feeling was a feeling I had never once felt before.' (Original Japanese: あの気持ちは、僕が今まで一度も感じたことのないものだった) --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  02:45, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot! I suppose "narration" would be more accurate than "dialogue". Sounds like a very roundabout (poetic?) way of saying "I had never felt like that before".  (talk) 03:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's exactly what it would mean in normal English, but he's speaking in a dreamy, poetic kind of way, so I provided a more literal translation. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Since he doesn't repeat the word "feeling" (気持ち) twice, the most literal translation is "That feeling was something I have never once felt before." That flows a bit better in English too :) 108.3.173.100 (talk) 05:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)TorreyOaks


 * As a follow up-question: How would one go about altering the tense of the sentence to "I have never felt like this before", or if one prefers, "I have never once felt this feeling before?" Would dropping the "datta" be any help at all? Thanks,  (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the above sentence CAN be translated with "have" instead of "had" to sound more natural but if you want to get super specific.... だった/Datta indicates past tense, so to put it into present tense change it to だ (NOTE: this works best for a male speaker... it sounds unfeminine -- the narrator's a guy so that's fine). But to alter the degree of time that has elapsed since the novel feeling (longer ago vs. more recent) the word you need to alter in this sentence is the Japanese equivalent of "that" ... あの/Ano means "that" but implies a lot oｆ distance -- something located FAR from the speaker either in time or space. So "that feeling" can be expressed as あの気持ち　to indicate that the feeling occurred a while ago. To show that the feeling is ocurring RIGHT NOW as the speaker is speaking use "this feeling" instead of "that feeling", resulting in: この気持ちkono kimochi.
 * If you want to show the feeling is occurring NEITHER right now nor a while ago but somewhere in between, a good intermediary is その/Sono, which means "that" implying something sort of far but still sort of near. When referring to a physical object it usually means something far from the speaker but close to the listener; when referring to an event it means something recent. Hope that helps! 108.3.173.100 (talk) 23:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)TorreyOaks
 * Thanks. I was under the impression that "boku" indicated that the speaker was male anyway. By the way, what is the correct romanization? "sono kimochi wa" or "sono kimochi ha"?  (talk) 11:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's "sono kimochi wa". The speaker is definitely a male because of using "boku". In Japanese novels/non-fiction, authors do not need to add "he said" or "she said" to the speech to let readers understand the sex of the speaker. As for "this" and "that", the usage in Japanese is different from English. "This feeling" means the current feeling the speaker feels, not the feeling the speaker felt in the past. "Ano kimochi wa/that feeling" is the subject and "boku ga imamade ichidomo kanjitakotono naimono/something I have never felt before" is the adjective phrase, I'm not sure it's the correct term though, and "datta/was" is the verb. Oda Mari (talk) 14:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'm on really thin ice here, but I'd call that an "adverbial". Also, is there a particular reason for your grouping the words together like "kannjitakotono naimono" instead of "kanjita koto no nai mono (datta)"? I looked at our romanization articles, but couldn't find an explanation.  (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No particular reason. Without realizing it, I grouped the words in my own native speaker's way. It could also be grouped as "kanjitakononai/never-felt or unexperienced (adjective) and mono/thing(noun)". I think I unconsciously cut the phrase where I would breath or put a very short unnoticeable pause when I read it. At least native speakers do not chop a sentence/phrase into small pieces like "kanjita koto no nai mono (datta)". I think it is a easy-to-understand way for non-native speakers/learners. But to native ja speakers it looks unnatural as writing the word unexperienced as "un-experience-d", it might be a right way though. Oda Mari (talk) 18:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, I didn't know that. Upon re-listening to the trailer, I realize that your grouping seem to more closely resemble the way that he actually speaks. But yes, I'm more used to seeing the "chopped up" way.  (talk) 20:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of medieval logic mnemonic
Does this mean anything in Latin, or is it nothing but a list of names? (If the latter, do any of those names have real-world referents besides the syllogisms?)
 * Barbara, Celarent, Darii, Ferio que prioris;
 * Cesare, Camestres, Festino, Baroko secundae;
 * Tertia, Darapti, Disamis, Datisi, Felapton,
 * Bokardo, Ferison, habet; Quarta in super addit
 * Bramantip, Camenes, Dimaris, Fesapo, Fresison

68.123.238.146 (talk) 01:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They're just mnemonic words (some made up) chosen for the arrangement of their vowels, which represent the various combinations of the four kinds of propositions (signified by a, e, i, and o) in the types of valid syllogisms. See Syllogism for a full explanation. Deor (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, and as to "real-world referents", many of them don't (at least, I'm not aware of "Felapton"′s [for example] having any meaning in Latin or Greek), but some do: "Barbara" = "a female barbarian", "Celarent" = "they were hiding" (subjunctive), etc. Deor (talk) 03:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In fact, some consonants are also chosen to represent the way in which one can reduce one figure to one of the first figure. Hence, that's why there are many restrictions on the naming; and hence, this is the reason why some names are just meaningless. Pallida  Mors  23:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Translation request
Can someone help me to translate my project in english please..."Noong hindi ko pa kilala si Hesus bilang tagapagligtas ng buhay ko ako ay palaaway at devoted sa mga santo at sila ang aking tagapagligtas, para sa akin ang aklat ay para sa mga taong kampon ng diyablo, kapag nakakakita ako ng taong may dalang bible tinataguan ko sila sapagkat ang alam ko sila ay papunta sa impyerno. ganon ang buhay ko noon. purihin ang Diyos at nakilala ko sya bilang tagapagligtas ng aking buhay. dating masama pero ngayon ay binago niya ang buhay ko at tinawag upang magbahagi ng salita ng Diyos sa mga taong nangangailangan ng kaligtasan. napasarap palang maging anak ng Diyos may kapayapaan at tiyak pa ang kaligtasan. tinawag niya ako. purihin ang Diyos na buhay. sa kanila po ng aming pagsubok masaya pa rin po naming naibabahagi ang salita ng Diyos napatunayan ko din na ang Diyos ay nanatiling tapat at biyaya niya ay sapat sa amin. sa ngayon ay may maliit kami na simabahan kasama ang mga myembro na masayang naglilingkod" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joannedaze (talk • contribs) 03:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * An online Tagalog to English translator gives: When I do not know Jesus as savior of my life I was pugnacious and devoted to the saints and they are my savior, for me the book is for those who are allies of the devil, when I see people carrying a bible I tinataguan because they know they are heading to hell. still, my life then. praise God as she and I met in my life savior. former bad but now has changed his life and called to share the word of God to those who need salvation. napasarap falange become children of God there is peace and certainly more safety. he called me. praise God lives. Please them our testing we enjoyed po naibabahagi still the word of God I also verified that God is still faithful and He is enough to grace us. now we have little simabahan including serving members happy. I hope a speaker of the language may know more, as this makes little sense.--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say that looks a lot like Filipino. I'm pretty good at recognizing languages. However, I don't speak Filipino one bit, so Cookatoo's answer is probably best. The Raptor  Let's talk/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 23:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering the similarity between Tagalog and Filipino, it is not always clear for the author of a text in which of the two he/she is writing. --Soman (talk) 15:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

A Persian poem
I'm looking for a mediaeval Persian debate poem by Asadi Tusi called " مغ و مسلمان" (Mogh o Mosalman, the Magian and the Muslim). I'm interested in it mostly because of the religious debate in it. I don't really read Persian, although I've dabbled a little bit in Middle Persian and could try to slowly and painfully "decipher" a New Persian text. I've got two problems in which someone who knows New Persian could help.

1. Finding the full text in Persian, if available anywhere on the web (I would have preferred a translation, of course, but it seems that no translated version exists, at least not on the Internet). With google and my close-to-zero ability to read the language, I've only managed to find what appears to be an excerpt (here and here, for example). I would be grateful if anyone capable of using the Persian-language internet can suggest to me where it is possiblehttp://www.loghatnaameh.com/dehkhodaworddetail-8f50fc80479e4f7f91ea948c354d4e1d-fa.html to find the full version.

2. Reading the text. If I find it, I'll try to struggle through it myself, but any help would improve things. The text would be too long for anyone but an obsessive historian of religion to be willing to translate it for free, but perhaps some brief account of the contents (besides the fact that the Muslim wins) would not be too much trouble for a speaker of the language.

If anyone can help me with either of these things, I would be very grateful.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 17:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You will find the full version here: . It is more famous as "گبر و مسلم" (Gabr o Moslem). It's a very long poem and even summarizing it takes a long time. If you are not in haste, perhaps I can provide a summary in a couple of days. --Omidinist (talk) 05:56, 22 Jul--Omidinist (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)--Omidinist (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)y 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks!! I really didn't have that much hope that the whole text could be found at all, let alone so soon! No, I'm not in haste. I've saved it and I'll do my best to "decipher" it word for word eventually, using a dictionary, but if it doesn't burden you too much to provide a summary, that would be even better: it would also help me when I move through the text myself, because I would know what to expect, approximately. Again, thank you very much indeed! --91.148.159.4 (talk) 12:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. I'll do my best, though I'm not so fluent in English. You may have to decipher my English too! --Omidinist (talk) 13:35, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't be so modest. :) --91.148.159.4 (talk) 15:16, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's the summary: "I was in a circle of philosophers when I saw a Moq waiting idle. He was a follower of Zoroaster and I a follower of Muhammad. We got a bet on which of us can persuade the other into his religion. Moq said: My qibla is better than yours. Creation of clouds and movement of winds is by the heat of Fire. Growing of trees is by the power of Fire. Hindus take pride in burning their bodies in Fire. Priests hang their crosses in front of a Fire. God made Fire one of the miracles of Khalil (Abraham). Kalim (Moses) looked for Fire and became a prophet when he found it. (HE CONTINUES FOR TWENTY MORE LINES.) I replied: Now listen to what I say about the graces of the Earth one by one. Earth is tolerant under the Fire and tolerance is not a shame. If by searching for Fire that prophet became Kalim, his tongue was burned by Fire as well. If God sent his message to Khalil through a Fire, at the time of Noah He drew water from the Earth. At the Day of Judgement, passage of both believers and non-believers is through Fire, but in the end Fire is the share of infidels, while the Earth is an outspread table of gifts for the people. The Earth is hanging in the air by the will of God. It is qibla for Adam who is made of clay. Angels pay homage to it, prophets go on pilgrimage to it. Satan is made of Fire, Adam of soil; see which one is better. Earth is the mother of plants and animals. World is like a guest house, God its host; Earth is like a food, everyone eater of the food. (HE GOES ON FOR ABOUT FIFTEEN MORE LINES. AT THE END:) Moq found out that the Earth was a better qibla than Fire. He could say nothing in reply. So he confessed that the true religion was Islam and Muhammad was the best of all prophets."

Well, my friend, I hope it helps. Please let me know if you have trouble with the meaning of any specific line of the poem. Good luck. Omidinist (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for your effort! Of course this was a great help. Now I have a fairly good idea of the contents. It's very interesting that the dispute between the two religions actually develops as a dispute between two elements, Fire and Earth. Thanks once again! --91.148.159.4 (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Beligian or Belgian
What's the difference between Beligian or Belgian?--77.166.165.137 (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Beligian is usually a misspelling of Belgian, but it's also a surname (Armenian, I believe). Steewi (talk) 00:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Surnames that end in -ian are usually Armenian (those ending in -vili or -adze are usually Georgian, those ending in -enko are usually Ukrainian, and those ending in -escu are usually Romanian :P) Rimush (talk) 08:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't be just -vili, but rather -shvili (შვილი), meaning "child". About the Armenian, I can imagine 3 possible ways of spelling Beligian, of which I'm not sure if any is correct, but google.am gives no Armenian-language hits for any of them. Բելիգյան: the web, in Armenian; Բէլիգյան: the web, in Armenian; Բըլիգյան: the web, in Armenian. --Theurgist (talk) 09:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My bad. Rimush (talk) 10:11, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * See Family name affixes. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:00, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How is the prefix A-, which is the first one to be listed in the page linked above, used to determine "son of" in Romanian family names? I've never thought of that, and I am unable to think of any examples right now. --Theurgist (talk) 21:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It refers to mainly Moldovan names such as "Ailenei" or "Atodiresei" ("a" meaning "of" here, from "a ei" = "hers"). When someone's father wasn't known, the person had no surname, so the mother's first name (Ileana, for example) was used with the prefix "a" (showing possession) to build one: Ailenei ("ilenei" = "Ileana" in the genitive case). Rimush (talk) 07:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)