Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 6

= July 6 =

'Hostage to fortune' idiom
I would like a breakdown of the meaning for the English idiom "hostage to fortune", or "giving hostage to fortune." It is a rarely used phrase but the literal meaning to it has been plaguing me relentlessly. I should also further explain that I am not asking for the definition of the phrase; that would be a simple enough job by doing a quick internet search. I am, however, asking for the literal meaning of it. When 'giving hostage to fortune', does 'fortune' represent a desired outcome? And to give 'hostage' to it would be to make a comment or perform an action in which you don't fully know the outcome, but you're making it or doing it, anyway?72.70.140.90 (talk) 00:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * literally, and somewhat colloquially, it means doing something that may come back to bite you in the a$$ later if you're unlucky. e.g. if you have a torrid, semi-public affair, and then decide to run for congress 10 years later, you're chances of succeeding are completely at the mercy (i.e. hostage to) fortune (personified).  it's not a good thing usually.  -- Ludwigs 2  00:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It comes from the historical meaning of hostage (see also hostage). If you were a king, and there were political tensions with a neighboring country, you might send one of your children as a hostage, as a guarantee that you're not going to attack them, and they'd do the same. In this phrase, I think the moral is that Fortune is fickle, not to be trusted with things you care about. Indeterminate (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * A little late to the party, but I have always understood and used the phrase in this sense: "He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune, for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief." Francis Bacon. 1561-1626 Gog the Mild (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Zsa Zsa figure of speech
A man's not complete until he's married; then he's finished. (Zsa Zsa Gabor)


 * I should know this. What's the figure of speech called when 2 words that are ostensibly synonyms (such as "complete" and "finished"), are used in such a way that the text only makes sense if the second is an antonym of the first?  And no, I don't mean "pun".  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   12:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's kind of a G-rated Double entendre. Zsa Zsa's famous comment makes sense either way, though. She probably meant to reinforce the first part of the sentence, and may not have understood that "finished" can mean "completed" or it can mean "kaput". Assuming she was not making an intentional joke, the term you might be looking for is malapropism. I might also call it a Yogi Berraism, since it's the kind of thing he might say. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really a "malapropism", going by the strict definition. That would be more like a Norm Crosby joke, e.g. referring to Gentiles as "uncircumscribed". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * How about "homographic pun"? The example given on that site seems to be in the same league as Zsa Zsa's comment, except that hers was presumably unintentional, which makes it all the better. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Bugs, I doubt hers was unintentional at all, as she is pretty famous for making jokes about married life and divorce (she divorced 9 times). --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  14:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In her salad days, she was known for saying lots of stuff that came out funny due to her being from a non-English-speaking country. That's part of the reason Jack Paar had her on TV so much. Kind of like they used to do with Charo, also. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not quite zeugma, but maybe some of the other terms discussed in that article would be what you want? -- LarryMac  | Talk  15:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't remember the name of this figure of speech either, but I remember hearing it illustrated with another quote about marriage: "Marriage is a wonderful institution ... but who wants to live in an institution?" (Groucho Marx), playing on the double meaning of the word institution. +Angr 19:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Or another Grouchoism, "Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:40, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not by Groucho (we actually have an article Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana...). AnonMoos (talk) 08:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The word you are looking for is perhaps antanaclasis although Zsa Zsa's is more of a close relation as the words should be the same, but then greek and latin didn't have the wealth of synonyms.  meltBanana  20:42, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, it seems to be close to various things, but not quite any of them. Homographic pun/antanaclasis seems closest. Maybe it doesn't have a name. Maybe I'll coin the term "Zsazsaism". Maybe not. Thanks to all who had a go. --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Origin of "Eye of the Tiger".
What is the origin of the phrase/expression "Eye of the Tiger"? Does it come from the 1975 novel mentioned in the disambiguation link, or is it older? 195.35.160.133 (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2010 (UTC) Martin.
 * Difficult to say as I don't know what the expression even means, but likely they have been considered fearsome since someone first saw one and lived. See also the mineral Tiger's Eye, known as such since at least 1896.  meltBanana  17:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I tried a Google Books search on the phrase, limiting it to dates before 1975. There were a number of hits, but it didn't seem as though any of them was creating or using a well-known expression.  (A few of the hits referred to the 1977 movie mentioned on the disambiguation page, but that's because Google Books sometimes gives misleading dates, especially for periodicals).  --Anonymous, 18:46 UTC, July 6, 2010.

Need help with Dutch song!
If you can speak Dutch, I need help! Do you know what song this is? What are they saying? Is this even Dutch? I heard it at a hostel in Antwerp, and wanna know who sings it! It could be just a creation of the guitarist, but maybe someone's heard it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXUI6wlQxsg

Jared  (t)  &ensp; 19:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It is Dutch. I can only make out : ...nacht is ... daglicht niet verdragen kan ... That's al I can say. Ask your question here: nl:Help:Helpdesk. Maybe someone else knows. --VanBurenen (talk) 19:36, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you did already :). --VanBurenen (talk) 19:39, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I hear "...de nacht is voor alles wat het daglicht niet verdragen kan..." ("the night is for everything that can't stand the light of day"), which yields no google results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)