Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 7

= July 7 =

"Baby" in German and Dutch
German and Dutch both seem to have assimilated the English loanword "baby". It's odd, because you'd think that was a fairly basic item of vocabulary. What words did they previously use for a child in its first couple of years? Lfh (talk) 08:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * French did the same thing (bébé). AnonMoos (talk) 08:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * German also uses the word Säugling. 203.208.110.63 (talk) 08:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Dutch has "zuigeling". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I wonder when "baby" established itself in these languages then. Lfh (talk) 10:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * According to Duden's volume on etymology, German borrowed "Baby" from English sometime in the 19th century. I wasn't able to find anything more precise, and it would be interesting to see some of the earliest usages. ---Sluzzelin  talk  12:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Still found no date or early examples of usage, but this paragraph from Geschichte der Deutschen Sprache (Peter von Polenz, Walter de Gruyter, 2009, 139-140) might interest you. As is often the case with borrowed words, the usage of "Baby" isn't congruent with that of the Germanic words "Säugling" or "Kleinkind". "Säugling" is a word used in clinical terminology (you will find "Säuglingsstationen" (neonatal ward) and "Säuglingsschwester" (baby nurse) in hospitals, but not "Babystation" or "Babyschwester"). "Kleinkind" (literally "small child") is used in more official texts, such as laws or health warnings. "Baby" has more of a touch of endearment (lacking in "Säugling" or "Kleinkind") and is used more colloquially, when you are talking about a particular baby, for example, but also in department stores where you will might encounter "Babyartikel" etc. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wierdly in French or Franglais, "les babies" are flat shoes fastened with a strap. Alansplodge (talk) 14:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The word 'baby' has come into popular use in plenty of languages, not just European ones. In Japanese, the word is borrowed in two different forms: 'beibii' and 'bebii'. The former is used generally as a term of endearment to women, and the second one is used in compounds, such as 'bebii-car' ('babycar', meaning pram) and 'bebii-fuudo' ('baby food'), 'bebii-uea' ('baby clothes', also 'bebii-fuku'). --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  14:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems to be one of those words that have taken on a life of their own in languages across the world since the 20th century, possibly assisted by US popular culture. But what interested me was the borrowing into European languages of its meaning "very young child".  It's one thing to borrow a slang expression, quite another to replace a core item of vocabulary with a loanword that doesn't look remotely native and keep it unchanged.  Interesting to hear that this happened as long ago as the 19th century. Lfh (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It goes both ways, though (i.e. kindergarten). We could have just kept calling it pre-school or grammar school or one of the other variants, but instead we decided to borrow a four syllable German word - apparently in order to make it trickier for young children to relate what grade level they're in when asked. Matt Deres (talk) 16:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's true. Then, with the word 'kindergarden' (used by some), we (or those who insist on using '-garden' instead of '-garten') only translated half of it. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I happen to know that Luther's German Bible refers to the baby Jesus as "das Kindlein". That word combines the word Kind (child) with the diminutive suffix -lein to mean "the little child".  Usually diminutives imply or can imply endearment.  So, in early modern German, Kindlein would seem to have been very nearly equivalent to the English "baby".  The source cited by Sluzzelin states that Baby is similar to the word Kindchen, a diminutive form like Kindlein.  Sluzzelin or anyone else, do you have any idea why Kindlein and Kindchen would have given way to Baby?  Marco polo (talk) 15:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In case anyone hasn't had the occasion to look at such things previously, the articles on Pseudo-anglicism (and Wasei-eigo and Denglisch, etc.) might be of interest...--达伟 (talk) 16:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a-speculatin', but the reason the word "baby" caught on might have something to do with the fact that it sounds a lot more like babbling than "zuigeling" or "kindlein" and therefore has a more appropriate feel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 17:17, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that babbling is not a word in German, and there is not a similar-sounding word in German with the same meaning. Marco polo (talk) 17:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As a native speaker I have to disagree. I have both heard the words "brabbeln" and "Gebrabbel" as well as "babbeln", which the Duden suggests to be as old as the 16th century. (The latter being also a word for spreading rumors) --91.6.7.167 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC).  And thats what I get for not reading correctly: All three are words for baby sounds, not for the children themselves --91.6.7.167 (talk)
 * I think IP 194 meant that "baby" sounds like the actual babbling of a baby, not the English word "babbling". Lfh (talk) 18:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, see also my first link (here it is again, see the entry right above "Baby"). Regarding Marco polo's question, it is a good one, but I found no explanation why "Kindchen" or "Kindlein" isn't used these days anymore (or not as frequently as "Baby". It still exists in the famous lullaby "Schlaf, Kindlein, schlaf" or in Christkindl, but I wouldn't expect to read it in modern texts). As Mp pointed out, von Polenz does mention that "Kindchen" would be hypocoristically equivalent to "Baby" but gives no explanation as to why it has become somewhat obsolete. ---Sluzzelin talk  18:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Something which seems obvious (to me) hasn't come up yet (so perhaps it's not really that obvious).
 * Aren't Säugling and zuigeling simple cognates with "suckling", an English word which perfectly describes any mammal still being nursed -- easily including a child in its first couple of years?
 * DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that it's obvious, but I don't think that Säugling/suckling was ever a word with the same emotional value as baby. Marco polo (talk) 22:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Just speculation: I think that certain consonantal combinations in German are inherently more "awkward" than others and tend to be avoided in colloquial speech.  Säugling, Kindlein and Kindchen may fall into this category.  Added to that may be the feeling that these words do not sound "babyish".  It may be a bit like the term Geschlechtsverkehr, a word which sounds sufficiently unpleasant to cause instant flaccidity and generates the sudden desire to read a good book instead.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know about consonant combinations per se, but certainly Baby seems to have filled a gap in modern German ("eine Lücke im deutschen Wortfeld gefüllt", as Polenz puts it). And Sex is clearly a sexier word than Geschlechtsverkehr.  So, more uninformed speculation: perhaps the regional variants of German have always had their own colloquial words that roughly correspond to our "baby", "sex", "clever", and there was no gap; or rather the gap was only in Hochdeutsch, which had not previously been an everyday language for most people. Lfh (talk) 12:06, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's the same in Swedish too. In stead of spädbarn we often use the word baby or bebis nowadays. I think it is because it is a shorter, easier word to use and English is influencing Swedish in many ways since the mid-20th Century. The Great Cucumber (talk) 06:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The earliest reference for the word "Baby" in a German text I could find on Google Books is from 1852 . My dtv Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Deutschen says that the earliest known reference is from the 1840s.
 * It seems the first references are from descriptions of North America and are not used as a generic word for young child but as a pet name. It's not uncommon that terms of endearment are borrowed. German Mama and Papa (meaning Mom and Dad) are also borrowed from French. And even Mom and Dad are used nowadays by some German trying-to-be-hip youngsters who think the words Mama and Papa arelame but who also think that German Mutter and Vater (or Mutti and Vati) are too distanced. This is especially furthered by the habit of TV makers to keep adresses like Mom and Dad when translating American movies and series into German. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 12:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that link, Slomox. Reading the word "Baby" in Fraktur script was unusual. ---Sluzzelin talk  12:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Redoubt
How do you pronounce redoubt? Does is rhyme with doubt? — Kpalion(talk) 09:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The OED gives the pronunciations /rɪˈdaʊt/ (British), /rəˈdaʊt/, and /riˈdaʊt/ (both American). All three of those have the second syllable pronounced the samed as doubt. Algebraist 09:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, Algebraist. — Kpalion(talk) 09:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note incidentally that "doubt" and "redoubt" actually aren't perfect rhymes, as they have the same consonant sound before the accented vowel. Oops, our rhyme page doesn't mention that.  ...Okay, now it does.  See Rhyme. --Anonymous, 23:08 UTC, July 7, 2010.
 * When I say it, it DOES rhyme with doubt. I've never heard any English person pronounce it differently. Alansplodge (talk) 14:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * IIUIC, Anon is saying that it is not a perfect rhyme precisely because it is pronounced the same, on the grounds that it is too close to the "identical rhyme". "Perfect" here presumably has the meaning of being sufficiently esthetically pleasing to be used in poetry. None of this has anything to do with the original question.—Emil J. 15:18, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a common misconception. For there to be a perfect rhyme, there has to be a different letter consonant or set of letters consonants before the stressed vowel.  Thus, 'ago' does not rhyme with 'go' because they both contain 'g' and only 'g'; but grow, glow, throw, flow, Joe, toe, hello and others all rhyme with 'go'.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You seem to be saying Emil is misconceiving something while agreeing with him. Is there some distinction I am missing, or did you indent too far? --Tango (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure I was agreeing with him. I didn't really understand his explanation, so I provided my own.  My first sentence was unnecessary, and I've now dealt with it.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's perhaps worth mentioning that unlike "doubt" (where the 'b' was restored on genuine though arguably irrelevant etymological grounds), the 'b' in "redoubt" has no etymological justification. --ColinFine (talk) 19:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Russian
Does Zhiguli mean anything in Russian, or is it just a car name? Rimush (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the car is named after the Zhiguli Mountains. Russian wikipedia has something on possible etymologies under Жигули (возвышенность)#Этимология. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Not really being able to speak Russian, I can gather something about Persian and Pecheneg, but not much more :P I didn't know about the mountains, though Rimush (talk) 07:41, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I apologize, I was under the (faulty) impression that you spoke Russian. Unfortunately, my Russian isn't very good either, and I didn't understand everything written in that paragraph. From what I gather, one theory is that the word is derived from an old Turkic word "dzhiguli" for carts drawn by horses. Another, unreferenced, explanation is that the mountains are named after robber gangs who hijacked Volga boats and then beat the owners if they failed to pay a ransom fee. The robbers were called "zhigulyi" derived from the Russian verb жечь ("to burn" or "to torment"). Apparently there are other possible etymologies more, but the article doesn't explain them. ---Sluzzelin talk  13:46, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Cпасибо большое! Rimush (talk) 15:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Can't speak to the derivation, but for interest there is also Zhigulevskoye or, in English, Zhiguli beer. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Which sounds hilarious to my ears as it would mean "puking beer" in Polish. — Kpalion(talk) 08:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)