Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 22

= June 22 =

Possible dangling modifier
In the 2006 FIFA World Cup qualification article, there is the following sentence: The original distribution of places between the six confederations called for Oceania to be given one full spot in the final 32; however, this idea was seen as giving Australia a virtually certain place in the finals, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region. To my understanding, there could be a blatant dangling modifier here (see a recent question on this page), but English is a foreign language for me and I'm not sure if the sentence is not actually all right. Is it all right, and if not, how could it be best revised? (This probably belongs to the respective talk page, but I opted for posting it here because it would certainly receive a faster response and, possibly, further elucidations.) --Магьосник (talk) 01:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * One problem as I read it: the antecedent of "being" is "place," though that's a grammatical quibble and most people would figure out the sentence means Australia. If I were editing it, I might put:
 * ...one full spot in the final 32. However, this idea was seen as virtually guaranteeing a place in the finals to Australia, the strongest footballing nation in the region.
 * --- OtherDave (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think the antecedent of "being" is "this idea", when the author meant for it to be Australia, so it certainly counts as a dangling modifier in my books. Paul Davidson (talk) 01:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Which book is that?
 * On the OP, because this is an utterance of a native speaker who has good grasp in language, isn’t it bit of pedantry that one looks further in to this composition?
 * On pedantry, however, the problem might be only the phrase ‘as giving Australia’ in the sentence, and the last clause is a grammatically-correct adjectival clause (modifier). Although a gerund is often used with a noun this way, because they are nouns (giving Australia), the complication can be cleared by adding a preposition 'to' as 'as giving to Australia' without changing the meaning of the sentence. Correct? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You could certain add "to," as suggested, but that does nothing for the awkward subordinate clause following the final comma in the original sentence. "Being" is moping around with neither a close-by subject nor a possessive pronoun to keep it company; what it modifies it at best unclear.  I don't see "...as giving to Australia a virtually certain place in the finals, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region" as much of an improvement in terms of either clarity or readability. --- OtherDave (talk) 00:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If so, to pitch the anaphoric relation of the adjectival clause to its antecedent, this can turn like as stated before and the anaphora as 'being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region'--like,The original distribution of places between the six confederations called for Oceania to be given one full spot in the final 32; however, this idea was seen as giving Australia, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region, a virtually certain place in the finals. Correct? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 02:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeing "anaphoric" and "like as stated" in a sentence from someone worried about pedantry, I don't think I'll argue about what's "correct."  As anaphor resolution points out in its technical way, it's difficult sometimes to figure out what an expression's referring to, which was part of the OP's question.  Another part was to ask how best to revise the ungainly sentence.  Now there are two choices.  I didn't see mine as the best possible, but it beats a poke in the eye by Noam Chomsky. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I used OtherDave's suggestion to revise the sentence, but I also preserved the "by far" part. Now it goes as follows: this idea was seen as virtually guaranteeing a place in the finals to Australia, by far the strongest footballing nation in the region. Anyone could revise it further. --Магьосник (talk) 01:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A better wording, without any awkward word order, might be guaranteeing Australia a place in the finals, as they were by far the strongest... r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 18:57, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Isn’t the alteration semantically neutralized here for an epistemic reading while the actual utterance is non-epistemic to its actual syntactic and semantic contexts in a way that has no parallel to a subjunctive force (like, as if they were) or a past construal (like, as they were)?
 * That is, the original form carries a demotic evidential force in present tense in terms of how the anaphora relates its antecedent. -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Martian Language
I have to do my thesis about "Martian Language". I read your page on Wikipedia about it, and I saw that Wikipedia have a lot of information about this subject. Since this subject is quite a lot difficult and I haven't yet find a text written in Martian Language, so, if possible, I wish you help me. I look up the sites about Martian script translator and I bought a book written by Feng Yuh about Martian Language but find a text in Martian Language is quite difficult. Thank you for the helpfullness. Yours faithfully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Francarara (talk • contribs) 08:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note to editors: Martian language. --mboverload @ 09:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And the Wikipedia Barnstar made of Illudium Q-36 goes to mboverload for keeping this little fella out of the equation:
 * File:Marvinthemartain.jpg
 * -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 11:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * this webpage might help? You should use a Hong Kong-based search engine, in any case.  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 15:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The Martian language article has the beginning of the preamble of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Martian Language. It's a good topic - if it were me, I'd probably draw parallels to Rebus writing and L33tspeak as a kind of playful, creative, word puzzle meme. Indeterminate (talk) 23:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

'Dirty big' and 'dirty great'
I was just out in the garden minding my own business, when this dirty big/great dog came bounding out of nowhere and jumped all over me.

In that sort of sentence, the 'dirty' has nothing to do with the state of the dog's cleanliness. It's a sort of intensifier of 'big' or 'great'. I've looked in a few places but can find nothing about this use of 'dirty'. I'm sure it's colloquial and may even qualify as slang. I know it only from Australian usage, but it may occur elsewhere for all I know.

I'd be grateful for any information. Thanks. --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   12:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's used in the UK: my experience is usually as 'dirty great' rather than with 'big'. and  cite it as British English, but with no etymology;  and  make no mention. Bazza (talk) 13:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah I was going to say, I'm British and I've heard "dirty great" and "dirty great big" but never "dirty big". It's slang, yes – and low slang, at that.  You wouldn't hear it said on the playing fields of Eton, put it that way. --Viennese Waltz talk 13:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never heard it in American English. I know it only from Harry Potter. For example, Ron says at one point, "If you must know, when I was three, Fred turned my – my teddy bear into a dirty great spider because I broke his toy broomstick." +Angr 14:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The OED has it "Used adverbially as an intensive: very, exceedingly. slang." with earliest citations from 1920 (John Galsworthy), and 1943 (Dictionary of Australian Slang). DuncanHill (talk) 14:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * How interesting that Galsworthy uses it. He tended to write about upper class types, not the sort who would use this expression; maybe he has one of the Cockney chambermaids saying it downstairs.  But how interesting that it's not recorded before 1920.  It has a solid place in Australian English of a certain register, and I wouldn't have thought that anything an Englishman wrote in a novel as late as 1920 could possibly have had that influence.  Obviously, Galsworthy was using an established expression and did not coin it.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The Galsworthy quotation is "'E wants to syve 'is dirty great 'ouse." It's from Foundations. DuncanHill (talk) 20:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This reminds me of the American expression "big old hairy," used to describe any number of objects, emotions, or situations that aren't strictly speaking old or hairy. "My brother used to have this big old hairy Oldsmobile, but when the brakes failed and he rammed the garage door, my dad had a big old hairy fit."  --- OtherDave (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Rarely heard "dirty big" either but my slang dictionary lists it. I would guess it is a minced oath, instead of saying "fucking big" or "bloody great" or the like, a placeholder is used that deliberately acknowledges that a dirty word has been hidden. Particularly likely is "damn great" being self-censored after the initial sound and changed to "dirty great", similar to the use of "sugar" as a replacement for "shit".  meltBanana  00:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC) Oh and "old hairy" is pretty close to "Old Harry" a common name for the devil and frequently used as an oath. That makes for rather tenuous slang, but then slang perceived as obscene can get pretty tenuous.  meltBanana  00:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Similar to the New England (or only Boston?) adverb "wicked" -- e.g. (baseball): "Nomar was a wicked good hitter!" 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The minced oath theory rings true with me. Never occurred to me before. Thanks for that idea, MeltBanana. --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

"Dirty big" is used extensively in Newfoundland, Canada - try searching for "dirty big" + newfoundland 18:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

What is the right word here
You call someone who displays honesty as honest, you call someone who displays bravery as brave, what should you call someone who displays integrity? Integral? Googlemeister (talk) 14:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No that wouldn't work. Try principled, honourable, respectable, moral, upright, ethical... --Viennese Waltz talk 14:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But none of those words, strictly speaking, are a full and accurate description of one showing integrity. Similar yes, but not quite the same.  Googlemeister (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I just checked several dictionaries under www.onelook.com, and none of them shows an adjective corresponding to "integrity". So you just have to say that the person "has integrity" or a similar expression.  English is like that.  --Anonymous, 21:17 UTC, June 22, 2010.
 * Wiktionary mentions integrous. Rare - 0.01% "frequency in usage", whatever that means. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Integrous—that's what I would think, regardless of actual usage frequency. —6birc (talk) 12:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You're entitled to say that if you like, but most people would wonder what you were talking about since 'integrous' is not a word in most people's vocabulary. As Anonymous says, the best answer is "person of integrity" or similar, rather than one burdened by the solitary shackles of singleness.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   13:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Re "whatever that means": I didn't know, either, until I checked [[wikt:integrous]], which clarifies that integrity sees more than 10,000 times more use than integrous. HTH. See also the usage note there.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 20:33, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Honorable, noble, trustworthy, upright, righteous. 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Crystal Chrystal surname
Hi. Does anyone know the origin/meaning of the surnames above. Thanks.87.102.66.101 (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you read the article "Crystal (given name)"? Gabbe (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yesno. I was asking about Crystal (surname) ! 87.102.66.101 (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I suspect that it's the same surname as McChrystal (currently much in the news in the U.S.), which is an anglicized spelling of the Irish name Mac Criostail. That name means "son of Criostal", making "Criostal" apparently a first name in Irish, but I don't know the origin of it. Perhaps it's of the same Greek origin as the English girl's name Crystal mentioned above, or perhaps it's somehow connected with Críost "Christ" (the Irish equivalent of Christopher is Críostóir; maybe Criostal is a variant or nickname of Críostóir, I don't know), or maybe it's not related to either of those and the similarity is coincidental. Sorry I can't help you further. +Angr 21:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks - found this from that http://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/criostal-christopher.php and http://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/criostoir-christopher.php which seems a likely answer given the 'Mac' 87.102.66.101 (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The Oxford University Press A Dictionary of Surnames, 1988, ISBN 0192115928, has them as a Scots name, from a Scottish pet form of the given name Christopher. DuncanHill (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * There also Jewish Americans whose ancestors immigrated from Eastern Europe named Crystal and Kristol etc. I am assuming their current spelling might be derived from Kristall or Kryształ but I found nothing conclusive online. ---Sluzzelin talk  22:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting - there's a similar thing with the MacCarrolls, O'Carrolls (Irish/Scots) and various forms of Korol/Karl in eastern and central european surnames, both of which I've seen 'anglicised' to carroll, but with different original etymology meanings.
 * The nearest thing to "kristol" I can think of in an eastern european language is 'Krivy Rih Stal' (bent horn steel?)- which must be totally unrelated. Could the jewish surname be anything related to their trade eg http://www.kristallsmolensk.com/ (since having a name that derives from "christ bearing" seems unlikely for somone Jewish?


 * I did a bit more searching and found that there were definately jews living in Poland around 1900 with the surname "Kristol" (spelt like that). 87.102.66.101 (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Kristol surname
ok Does anyone know the origin/etymology of the central/east european surname Kristol ? 87.102.66.101 (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I would guess it's from Kristall, the German word for "crystal." All the Kristols I know of are Jewish, and because Jewish people didn't traditionally have Western-style surnames, they got to pick their own when governments began requiring them in the late 18th and 19th centuries. That's why a lot of Jewish people have names like "Rosen," "Bloom" or "Gold." "Crystal" sounds like a pretty name, so it was probably chosen just for that reason. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That was my guess too. I was just wondering if it came from an original name eg "Salomon" >> "Salmon".77.86.123.157 (talk) 00:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)