Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 23

= June 23 =

translation
Is there any English saying for 口同鼻拗? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciesse 203 (talk • contribs) 09:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you provide the meaning of the phrase? I've looked into theXiandai Hanyu Cidian but it isn't there. Is it slang?  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 15:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Google gives over 1,200,000 hits for that specific character combination, but, surprisingly I can't find it in any Chengyu dictionaries. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I just checked with a Chinese colleague, and was told that the four-character structure made it look like a proverb, but she wasn't familiar with it, and it didn't make any sense. Literally, it translates "mouth with nose bend/contrary," so "the mouth argues with the nose?"  A pointless argument?  "Argument for argument's sake" is the closest thing in English to that idea that I can think of, or maybe "liking the sound of one's own voice" to imply that the argument is meaningless.  Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a Chengyu, it's a Cantonese Xiehouyu (allegorical proverb) for expressing the situation where one argues against himself to no avail. It literally means "the mouth argues with the nose". See: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/2918008/ The above English translations are fine, depending on the context. --Kvasir (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ooh, I assumed he meant mandarin. Makes perfect sense in Cantonese then, though I've never heard of the phrase.  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 09:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian
Look at the talk about WP:RUS, please. As you see, I am convinced that WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian. --Finrus (talk) 19:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * And your question is ....? --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

My question is, that is my opinion WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian right or wrong. --Finrus (talk) 19:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * For what it is worth, I agree with your point, but the Ref Desk is not the place to continue the dialogue. Sussexonian (talk) 20:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Poetry
Not sure if this belongs in here or in Humanities. I would like to find a really good website or (preferably) dead tree book that teaches the mechanics of poetical forms - meter, rhymes, etc. etc. for a variety of different types of poetry, including examples of each. WP actually has a bunch of really good articles, including an outstanding FA for poetry, but I'm looking more for something a bit more... "hands on" if that makes sense; something that is more of a manual or "how to" than overview. If it critiques specific or famous poems and/or provides exercises to try, that would definitely be a benefit. Any suggestions? I've been reading a variety of poetry and I can tell I'm not "getting" some of the mechanics being used, so I'd like to get a better grasp of that and/or try my hand at my own. Matt Deres (talk) 20:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What sort of level? Detailed, or more introductory? I recently read a good one in the introduction category (with and odd, almost narrative style), but from what you say, a textbook-style work might be better? - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 20:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A good textbook might be just the thing. All too often, they seem to be of the type that really should be ripped out and disposed of, though, hence my request for guidance :). Between WP and my dim recollections of English class, I think I'm past most of what would be covered in a introductory text... or at least, so I think. Let me put it this way - I understand what iamb is, but I don't always understand why it would be used in a particular instance versus trochee and I understand the difference between masculine and feminine rhyme, but I don't understand why some forms require you to alternate between them (such as classical French poetry) - what does alternating them "do" to the poem versus having them all, say, masculine? (Our article on Sonnet 20 actually goes into this, but the explanation kind of gets overwhelmed by conjecture about Shakespeare's sexuality). Matt Deres (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm working from memory, but The Book of Forms: a Handbook of Poetics, by Lewis Turco, had a daunting number of forms. Some of the examples were perhaps not the best.  You can browse it via Google Books and see if it meets your needs. --- OtherDave (talk) 04:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew inscription
What does this Hebrew inscription say?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/17/shrine2_2.jpg

It is from Ezra's Tomb. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not completely sure, but it goes something like this:
 * Eternally remembered will be the righteous man
 * A floor
 * of marble stones in the original place
 * of the burial of our lord Ezra the scribe
 * may he protect us, Amen, and paintings and basins of the women's section (?)
 * The dear lady Asi???
 * ??? the wife of
 * ??? Menashe
 * ??? (acronyms that i don't understand)
 * ??? day ???
 * of Kislev 5669 (approximately December 1908)
 * Sorry about all the question marks - i failed to read these parts.
 * It is probably a memorial plaque that says in whose memory the money for the improvements of the religious building was donated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about all the question marks - i failed to read these parts.
 * It is probably a memorial plaque that says in whose memory the money for the improvements of the religious building was donated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

More or less, yes.


 * The floor
 * Of marble stones in the place of ...
 * Our teacher Ezra Hasofer of blessed memory
 * And the paintings and ... of the court {surrounding it}
 * The honorable lady Asi
 * 328 {around 1568}, the wife of
 * ... Menashe
 * {more years and abbreviations}

I disagree with the previous editor about the year. Debresser (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is the almost-complete original text (I've put any conjectural text - in square brackets, and my own explanations - in braces):

לזכר עולם יהיה צדיק

מתנדבת

?

רצפת

אבני שיש

במקום המקודש

[של ציון עזרא הסו[פר

[...]יע"א {=יגן עלינו אמן} וציורי וכיוּרי העזרה ב

[הגבירה היקרה סי' {=סיניורה} אס[תר

מב"ת {=מנשים באוהל תבורך} אשת

[...] צאלח מנשה [...]

[לעלוי נשמת בנה הב' {=הבחור} הנ[עים

רחמים נ"ע {=נוחו עדן} נלב"ע {=נפטר לבית עולמו} יום

[...]כסליו התרס"ט ב [...]

{רענן, יע"א {=יגן עלינו אמן} תנצ[ב"א] {=תהא נשמתו צרורה בצרור החיים

TRANSLATION:

"The righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance" {psalms 112 6}

{The lady mentioned below} donates

?

a floor

of marble stones

in the holy place

of the tombstone of our lord Ezra the sc[ribe]

may he protect us Amen, and {donates} the paintings and moldings of the {women's} outbuilding in [...]

{all of this is hereby donated by} the dear lady Signora {=Mrs} Es[ther]

"Blessed shall she be above women in the tent" {Judges 5 24} the wife of

[...] Saleh Menashe [...]

for the transcendence of her son's soul, the lo[vely] guy

Rahamim, may he rest in paradise, {who} passed away on the day of

[...] Kislev 5669 {= December (or the end of November) 1908} in [...]

lively, may he protect us Amen, may his soul be bound [in the bond of life]

HOOTmag (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Help in locating French book
I am wondering if anyone who frequents this page has access to the following book:

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/wieger_leon/textes_historiques/textes_historiques.html

You may notice the website offers free pdf files of the first two volumes. However, I need information from volume three, which is still being prepared by the transcriber. The information I am looking for appears on pages 1,880 to 1,890. It should have something to do with the Kaifeng Jews.

If no one has access to the book, I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind helping me contact the transcriber for the info. Fluency in French is obviously a must. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I did find another book about China by the same author in BNF's Gallica system. The BNF has your book in its collection: http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/biblio?idNoeud=1&ID=39451975&SN1=0&SN2=0&host=catalogue but hasn't scanned it. Markussep Talk 09:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The book is referenced in worldcat, so you can have a look where to find it :.
 * Just in case you did not find them already, there are some academic resources in French for "Juifs de Kaifeng" . --Anneyh (talk) 06:01, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Google books was actually the first place I looked. I couldn't find it in my local area, so I put in for an inter-library yesterday for pdf scans of the pages I need. I don't know French, but I doubt it will be that hard for me to figure out what it says. If I get stuck, I can always use an online translator. I've got plenty of books on the Kaifeng Jews. I think most of the French material is pretty old. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 06:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese News Source for Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood announcement
Not sure if this is the right Ref Desk to ask but here goes...

Thanks, 66.102.205.16 (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Can anyone translate this enough to determine if there is a news announcement of a 64th episode of the anime show Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist (鋼の錬金術師 FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST) which is also known as Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood ?
 * This image was obtained from the Anime News Network as one of their sources.
 * Also, is there any way to determine the name of the publication in the image?


 * The 64th episode is only mentioned at the bottom left, where it has the name of the episode followed by a date (July 4th).
 * "This image was obtained from the Anime News Network as one of their sources."? I'm not sure what you are asking here, but the Anime News Network is not mentioned anywhere.
 * I can see no way of knowing which publication this image came from. Sorry I can't be of any more help here. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  23:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * KägeTorä - (影虎): Thank you for the assist. The reference to A.N.N. was simply to advise where I had gotten the image from, just an FYI. A.N.N. is a sort of (minimal rules) wikipedia for anime. Would you do me one more favor and help fill in the following based on the text in that image:
 * EpisodeNumber  = 64
 * EnglishTitle   = ______________________________ ( example: A Fierce Counterattack )
 * KanjiTitle     = ______________________________ ( example: 凄絶なる反撃 )
 * RomajiTitle    = ______________________________ ( example: Seizetsunaru Hangeki )
 * OriginalAirDate = July 4, 2010
 * I realize the English Title may be only an approximate translation.
 * This information will help me in searching Japanese sites for a WP:RS.
 * Thank you. 66.102.205.16 (talk) 05:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure. In the space where the title would be (were it one of the other episodes listed), it only says 最終回 (Saishūkai), which just means 'Last Episode'. I don't know if it has a specific title (unlike the others), and a search on the internet hasn't revealed one. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK, cool. Your help has been much appreciated! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.102.205.16 (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Another source
Could I please ask for one last translation: www.hagaren.jp/news/index.html#n144 I tried Google Translate but it leaves it unclear because even though the text is in an area marked news, it seems to be asking a question. Is that a qwirk of Japanese grammar? 66.102.205.16 (talk) 06:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I assume you mean the top posting in that link (the one above the posting about 'Guririnrajo'). In which case, it says:

[Title]: "The Final Episode of Full Metal Alchemist - 64th Episode to be broadcast on July 4th (Sunday)"

"As for Full Metal Alchemist, the story which will soon plunge into its climax, the date of broadcast of the final episode has been decided! The 64th Episode, the final episode, will be broadcast from 5pm on Sunday, July 4th! Don't miss it!!" --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks KägeTorä, yes that was the one. It seems the "qwirk" is with Google Translator because when I looked again this morning I noticed the original Kanji has "!" exclamation marks not question marks. Weird. どうもありがとう！ 66.102.205.16 (talk) 18:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No problem! Glad to have been of service! --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  02:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)