Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 29

= June 29 =

Argumentative phrase
I'm having trouble thinking of a phrase about someone taking liberties with research. It has something to do with beginning with a conclusion and hammering the puzzle places into place to fit their own picture. That might be the saying itself, but I'm sure I've heard a more eloquent version of it somewhere. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 09:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "hammering a square peg into a round hole", or vice versa? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:45, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "twisting the facts to suit X"?
 * “I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Scandal in Bohemia, 1891.
 * Or possibly "putting the cart before the horse"? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Cherry picking, perhaps? Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 12:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Dunno about a phrase but it put me in mind of Procrustes. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * A similar thought came to Lord Justice Brennan when reviewing an important British legal case (see Computer Misuse Act 1990), where he described prosecutors' attempts to try a novel crime under an ancient and seemingly quite irrelevant law as a "Procrustean attempt". The term is apt, but I fear every time you use it you'll have to have a page of Bullfinch around to explain it to just about anyone (bar TammyMoet and Brennan LJ). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 13:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * think you're after something like argument from consequences or affirming the consequent in terms of pure logic. In research it's called massaging or fudging data, at least when it's done grossly.  -- Ludwigs 2  13:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You also might be thinking of experimenter's bias. —D. Monack talk 20:27, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation from Finnish
Google translate thinks kaikki on mahdollista kunnes hyeena laulaa ja louskuttaa leukojaan means everything is possible until the hyena sings and champs one's teeth and jaws. The bold part sounds weird even to my English. Fix? I know Finnish so I know the meaning is about correct. --192.100.124.218 (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The OED gives "To make a biting and chewing action or movement with the jaws and teeth," and "To gnash (the teeth), close (the jaws) with violence and noise. Obs" as definitions for champ as a verb. I'm familiar with the term "to champ at the bit" meaning to be impatient, but had always assumed it was a regional pronunciation.  The only fix I would make to the translation would be "and champs its teeth and jaws" if that would agree with the original Finnish. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 12:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It does. Notice the lack of a pronoun in the genitive case before the word leukojaan ("...'s jaws"). This definitely means that it's the hyena's own jaws it's champing. If it were someone else's jaws then the owner of the jaws would have to be mentioned. J I P  &#124; Talk 18:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

(op here) Thanks. --194.197.235.240 (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Use of "me"
Which is correct as a caption to a picture of three people walking down the road? "John, Jim and me walking down the road" or "John, Jim and I walking down the road"? Any technical rules much appreciated. Thanks, Ericoides (talk) 13:38, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say the first is fine. It gave me pause for thought as of course "John, Jim and me were walking down the road" would be incorrect in a proper sentence, but in the case of a caption which is not a full sentence "me" is fine. --Viennese Waltz talk 13:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec) "me". Taking the others out of the phrase leaves you with "(This is a picture of) me walking down the road." Bazza (talk) 13:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As a rule of thumb, use the word you would use if the other names weren't there. "John, Jim and I walked down the road" (because you'd say I walked down the road), but "that's when Douglas met John, Jim and me" (because you'd say that's when Douglas met me). -- Ludwigs 2  13:57, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks all. Bazza 7, I like your reasoning. Ericoides (talk) 14:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I is the subject, me is the object. Compare he/she and him/her: "He loves her", "she loves him". As suggested, the easiest solution is to take the others out of the sentence:
 * " (John, Jim and) I (were) was walking down the road".
 * "Who was walking down the road?"
 * " (John, Jim and) Me." Hayden120 (talk) 14:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I know all that stuff, but I didn't include it in my reply because it's not relevant, since we are talking about a phrase (a caption) not a sentence. Bazza7 is right, you apply the same principle to a phrase and the answer comes out "me". --Viennese Waltz talk 14:36, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I apologise. Yes, "me" is correct. I just thought I would explain the principle behind it. Oh well, maybe it will help someone else. Best regards, Hayden120 (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You can avoid the question if you simply name the person represented by the first-person pronoun. Also, if someone looks at the picture 100 years later, it will be easier to identify that person from a name than from a pronoun.—Wavelength (talk) 15:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * But that wouldn't be appropriate if the photograph is to appear in, for example, an autobiography or memoir. --Viennese Waltz talk 15:37, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Quite. There are ways of avoiding it (one way would be " Walking down the road with John and Jim", where it is obvious that "I" am accompanying them, either because I am so well known or because of other images in the material), but this is an argument at work and this construction is the one under scrutiny; a colleague is suggesting that it must be "John, Jim and I walking down the road" because "I" is one of the subjects of the verb "walking". In a full sentence that would be undeniable, but this is a caption, and I can't find any eg Hart's Rules-type authorities that give grammatical guidance on the question. The best so far, as stated, is the assertion that a portion of the sentence is implicitly understood – ie (This is a picture of). This means that "I" is no longer the subject and "me" is correct usage. Ericoides (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Bazza and Ludwig's argument has been trotted out by pedagogues and grammarians for decades, but there is no good reason to accept it. As Stephen Pinker points out (in Chapter 12 of The Language Instinct), "she and I go" does not imply "she go" (i.e. number does not carry over into the conjunction), so what grounds have we for assuming that case will do so? The argument might be valid, but there is no a priori reason for thinking so; and the natural speech of millions of English speakers in many times and places argue that it does not hold, except in a particular, and in some sense artificial, variety of English (see Joseph Emonds' 1985 paper A grammatically deviant prestige construction. For Emonds, any construction including " and I", as opposed to " and me" is part of a learned language which is not, and cannot be, anybody's mother tongue). --ColinFine (talk) 22:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

German vocabulary question
What are the differences in connotation or denotation between the words Etage, Ebene, Geschoss/Obergeschoss, and Stock, which all mean floor or story? Thanks, Reywas92 Talk 15:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know about semantic differences, but I can tell you that (a) Geschoss is Southern German/Austrian according to Collins, and (b) I never heard Ebene used in this sense when I studied German (unlike the other three), and neither Collins nor dict.leo.org mention this usage either. Lfh (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "Etage" is borrowed from French. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Here in Austria (Vienna): 1) Etage is rarely used; 2) I don't think Ebene is used for floor or story anywhere in the German-speaking world, though I might be wrong (I am, see below); 3) Geschoß (note long vowel and thus ß) is used here in three forms: Kellergeschoß (basement, a lot of times just Keller), Erdgeschoß (first floor in the US), Obergeschoß (upper floor, usually used in department stores), Dachgeschoß (attic), Zwischengeschoß (a "floor between the floors", Mezzanine, though Mezzanin in German usually refers to a Hochparterre, a "higher" US first floor) - you also hear Tiefgeschoß, which is used as an alternative for Kellergeschoß or (more rarely) for Tiefparterre (a "lower" US first floor); 4) Stock is used in most buildings for the floors (for example at the University of Vienna, or in apartment buildings), except for the ones which use "Geschoß" Rimush (talk) 17:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * See de:Geschoss_(Architektur). According to that article, "Geschoss" orginally referred to ballon-framed buildings, where horizontal beams were "shot" into the frame ("eingeschossen"). "Stockwerk" has its origins in jettied buildings. It referred to the actual timber material and could be translated as "processed rootstock" or "processed timber", I guess. According to the same article, "Geschoss" is today's terminus technicus in architecture, while "Stockwerk" and "Etage" are used colloquially (and confusingly, as, technically, the number of Stockwerke needn't be equal to the number of "Geschosse", and, in French, the "étages" are usually counted from the second floor on). I have seen the word "Ebenen" used in at least three German-speaking countries, particularly in real-estate ads. Often, it refers to levels that needn't be directly over each other and may include split levels, but the intended meaning can also simply be that of "Geschoss". ---Sluzzelin talk  18:21, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The word Ebene literally means "level", and it is used in German in much the same way that it is used in English. It is not the most usual way to refer to levels of a building (just as we usually call them floors or storeys), but it can be used, often in contexts in which level would be used in English.  Marco polo (talk) 19:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm slightly confused (I'm not the OP). You say "confusingly, as (...) in French, the "étages" are usually counted from the second floor on." By this, do you mean the ground floor, first floor, second floor system? Because my understanding was that German, like French and British English, also follows this system. We were taught "Erdgeschoß, erster Stock, zweiter Stock...", with "Etage" as a synonym for "Stock", although with the "posh" connotation of being derived from French. Are you saying that, when German uses the word "Etage", it counts the ground floor as "erste Etage"? 86.164.57.20 (talk) 19:24, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No, I was just reporting what the article said. I agree with what you wrote, and admit that the degree of confusion is perhaps academic. (added later: I was goint to argue that, perhaps, the editors meant that the set ofGeschosse even contains the Erdgeschoss (ground floor) by vocabulary, while no one says Erdetage. I have seen "Grundetage", however, though Parterre seems more fitting when speaking in the context of Etagen). ---Sluzzelin  talk  19:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Greek in Gaudy Night
Does anyone here have an older edition of Gaudy Night, preferably one dating from a time when books were put together and proofread by human beings rather than computers? My edition is apparently computer-generated by some software incapable of handling Greek letters, and the two passages where Greek phrases are cited are completely botched up.

The first passage is at the end of Chapter III, the last sentence of the paragraph beginning "And suppose they actually did". The line is: "Bless their hearts, how refreshing and soothing and good they all were, walking beneath their ancient beeches and meditating on ____________ and the finance of Queen Elizabeth."

The second passage is about one-quarter of the way into Chapter XVII, the last sentence of the paragraph beginning "You would have seen through it in any case". The line is: "The great advantage about telling the truth is that nobody ever believes it—that is at the bottom of the ____________________."

In fact, I already have a suspicion as to what they say, so I only need someone to confirm if my suspicion is right. I suspect that "meditating on" is followed by ὂν καὶ μὴ ὄν, and "the bottom of the" is followed by ψευδῆ λέγειν ὡς δεῖ. Can anyone confirm or deny? Thanks. +Angr 19:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have a copy of the novel at hand, but this guy's notes to it confirm your first guess. There's a lemma for the second passage but no note, and reproducing the Greek was apparently beyond his HTML abilities. Deor (talk) 20:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that page was one of the sources I used that led me to my suspicions! +Angr 20:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Google books has it, and you're correct on both counts. 213.122.63.97 (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You can get a preview of it on Google Books? I tried that and none of the editions I could find have a book preview. But then, I know that some previews are available in some countries and not in others, so I wouldn't be surprised if you can see things I can't. +Angr 05:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The first one I hit had previews, yes. They were just tiny snippets, a paragraph or less at a time, which appeared when I searched for your quotes within the book. 81.131.69.220 (talk) 02:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

By the way, the short story "Delenda Est" by Poul Anderson contains exactly one medium-length Greek word in the Greek alphabet, and I've never seen it printed correctly... AnonMoos (talk) 13:23, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I have a copy of a paperback printed in 1981 from an edition of 1963 and the image is as shown here. I think your greek letters are accurate, but some of the accents on my image are different. --Phil Holmes (talk) 12:10, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, your book has two mistakes in the first quote - χαὶ instead of καὶ as the second word and υὂ instead of ὄν as the last word - and one small mistake in the second quote - ψευδῆ is missing the circumflex over the η. But it's good enough to confirm that I got the quotes right. By the way, Gaudy Night is not out of copyright yet, neither in the U.S. (it was published after 1923) nor in the U.K. (Sayers died less than 70 years ago), so now that I've seen the image, it should really be deleted again. +Angr 13:25, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

In French: the meaning of l'axe
In French can the word l'axe have the connotation of a front such as in a military context, such as in the phrase "All is clear on the Western Front."LeonidasSpartan (talk) 20:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * To clairify the phrase in question is in this sentence: Du 19 au 25 mai 1940, le 97e effectue des actions retardatrices sur l'axe Péronne - Barleux. I just realized that might help me get the information I am looking for.LeonidasSpartan (talk) 21:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The usual translation into English is "the axis." So, the line or route between Peronne and Barleux in your example.  Zoonoses (talk) 23:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)