Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 3

= June 3 =

English to Japanese
What are the Japanese words for spacetime, gene, and antimatter? --75.25.103.109 (talk) 01:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Based entirely on interwiki links, I found this. Gene: 遺伝子（いでんし） Antimatter: 反物質（はんぶっしつ） Spacetime 時空（じくう） -Andrew c [talk] 02:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And if you want the romaji, it would be idenshi, hanbusshitsu, and jikū respectively (my japanese is a little rusty so my romanization could be a tad off. I'm sure someone will correct me). -Andrew c [talk] 02:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * No corrections needed, Andrew. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  02:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

What does Celine Dion say?
May I disturb you. In this video, what does Celine Dion say following having performed the song? It's French, and what I grasp is part of the song's title "amour existe encore." Thank you so much.

124.121.186.8 (talk) 09:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The part in question is at around 5:20 in the video, and from what I can hear she said "Votre amour existe encore. Merci Beaucoup!"; or in English "Your (plural) love still exists. Thank you very much!". --antilivedT 09:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * One interpretation is that she's saying in effect, "You still love me (your love [for me] is still there)," thanking the audience for their enthusiastic applause. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Correct capitalization for surnames
There are some surnames (such as that of Joran van der Sloot) that begin with lower case letters, as opposed to capital letters (in his case, the "v" and "d" of "van der"). Thus, when such a name is used within a sentence, the "v" and the "d" are not capitalized. When the surname is the first word of the sentence, however, does it then become capitalized? Or does it retain lower case letters (due to it being a proper noun)? In other words, in the following example, which would be the correct form of the sentence and why? (A) Van der Sloot was arrested on June 3. (B) van der Sloot was arrested on June 3. Thank you. (64.252.65.146 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC))
 * (A) is correct, certainly in English and, I'm pretty sure, in Dutch. I would even follow (A) in the case of surnames written in lower case for artistic reasons, as in: Lang has won both Juno Awards and Grammy Awards for her musical performances; hits include "Constant Craving" and "Miss Chatelaine". +Angr 19:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If it is important that the reader should know whether the tussenvoegsel (van der) is capitalised or not, it is better to recast the sentence, eg as "They arrested van der Sloot on June 3" Ehrenkater (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A similar question applies to things like eBay and ee cummings. Logically, these are no worse than words like the and he, which are always lowercase but are capitalized at the start of sentences, and should also be capitalized at the start of sentences. What's actually done? I don't know what's most common, but sentence-initial and title-initial results at show both styles in use. None of this answers your question about der, though.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 19:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's what Dutch name says: "Many Dutch names start with a prefix like van ('of/from'), de/het/ ' t ('the'), der ('of the'), van de ('of the/from the'), and in het ('in the'). Examples are ' t Hooft ('the head'), de Wolf ('the wolf'), van Rijn ('from Rhine'); but some verb-derived names that end in -en that often indicate occupations, like van Bruggen ('of bridges') for a bridge builder. In the Netherlands, these prefixes are not spelled with a capital when used in combination with the first name or initial, for example Piet de Wolf or R. van Rijn. In all other cases a capital letter must be used, for example, de heer Van Kampen, or when preceded by an academic title as in dr. Van Wijk. In Belgium, this capitalization practice is not followed; prefixes in most common Dutch names are always capitalized, though occasionally 'Van de' occurs whereas another family may have the otherwise identical name spelled as 'Van De'. Also, prepositions can be merged with the surname (such as Vandecasteele), or can be separate (Van De Casteele), and a few combinations occur (Vande Casteele). These variations indicate different families and not all names exist with several spellings. (More on this under Tussenvoegsels.)" Therefore, Van der Sloot is to be capitalised not only sentence-initially, but in every other case when not preceded by the given name. --Магьосник (talk) 20:23, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But surely that's the Dutch practice, not the English practice. In English the "van" of Vincent van Gogh is always spelt in lower case unless it starts a sentence.  In sentences like "The notable Dutch artists represented in our gallery include the sculptor Brouwenstijn and the painter van Gogh" - we don't suddenly start using "Van Gogh".  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say we do.--Patrick (talk) 07:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * We have a separate article Tussenvoegsel... AnonMoos (talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * btw, what does tussenvoegsel literally mean? Rimush (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary gives it as the Dutch word for infix. It's made up of tussen "between" + voeg "join, put" + -sel (nominal suffix), so literally "something put in between". +Angr 22:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Related question
I am the original poster. Thanks for the input. The above thread made me think of another question. Let us say (as an example) that I want to get across the idea that for little children in kindergarten, the lower-case letter "g" is particularly hard to master in penmanship class. To pre-empt the problem, my sentence might read: "Kindergarten students have a very difficult time when trying to learn to write the letter g in penmanship class." But what would be the correct capitalization if I wanted to use the lower-case "g" as the first word (character) of the sentence? g is the hardest letter of the alphabet for kindergarten students to master in penmanship class. Would that be correct? Switching the initial lower-case "g" to an upper-case "G" would destroy the intent of the sentence. Would my previous sentence be capitalized accurately? Would this be a legitimate exception to the rule about initial letter capitalizations or not? (Once again, I understand that the whole problem may be pre-empted by rewording the sentence. But my question still stands about the sentence as I wanted it worded with a "g" as the first word.)  Thank you! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2010 (UTC))
 * Do you have a reason to think that there is a rule that covers this? What is your standard for "correct"? --ColinFine (talk) 23:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * There is a general rule that covers this: it's called don't make idiotic problems for yourself. In this case write the sentence as "The lowercase 'g' is the hardest letter..." and forget about the capitalization question.


 * as Wittgenstein would have pointed out, rules are things we choose to follow because they are useful, not things we are required to follow because they are rules. -- Ludwigs 2  23:51, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Jesus said something similar about plucking grain on the Sabbath: "The Sabbath [i.e. the rules] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". +Angr 05:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Amen. but so few Christians get that.  the same is true of every religion, actually - I've never seen a teaching that wasn't a teaching of liberation, and I've never seen a faith that didn't (somewhere along the line) bind the threads of liberation into a collar of obedience.  "Do as I tell you, my child, and you will be free!"  Poppycock.    -- Ludwigs 2  05:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

My question is this. I know the rule that all sentences must begin with a capital letter. Therefore, knowing this ... is it still correct to write this sentence: g is the hardest letter of the alphabet for kindergarten students to master in penmanship class. Clearly, this is an odd case where the rule seems to not work. And, again, my question is ... if (for whatever reason) I wanted or needed the "g" to be the first word of the sentence ... would my proposed sentence be correct? I already know that the sentence can be re-worded (as I stated in my original question). And I don't appreciate the insinuation that my question is "idiotic" or "creating problems for myself". Personally, I think it's a valid and legitimate question ... otherwise, I would not have asked. Thanks. (64.252.65.146 (talk) 08:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC))


 * I like your question and will defend to the death your right to ask it, Friend 64. The sentence is perfectly fine, grammatically, and one could easily imagine someone saying it live.  If their words were transcribed, the transcriber would have to deal with the conflict between being faithful to what was said and being faithful to the rules of orthography.  Both are hard mistresses, but one of them would have to yield in this case.  There's an analogy with sentences like "Nineteen sixteen was a momentous year in world history", which orthography is necessary in order to not write "1916 was a ...".   But your sentence is not so amenable to such a substitution.  The only 2 options seem to be: (a) rewrite it so that the first word is not "g"; or (b) write "G (lower case) is the hardest ...".  Both are sub-optimal, and both would be unacceptable in the transcription scenario.  So there has to be a third option.  I don't have a problem with the sentence the way it stands: g is the hardest letter of the alphabet for kindergarten students to master in penmanship class.  My reasoning is that the rule about never starting sentences with lower case letters is about the letters that are elements of words - logical symbols, if you like - as distinct from the visual symbols that we interpret as "letters".  These visual symbols include ?, $, &, !, ", ) and others.  It would be impossible to write "? is sometimes written upside down in Spanish" in any other way without re-conceiving the sentence as, say, "The symbol ? is sometimes written upside down in Spanish".  Equally, this sentence could not be spoken without converting it to "The question mark is sometimes written upside down in Spanish".  But these obstacles aside, the sentence as it stands is OK, despite starting with ?.  If that's acceptable, so is the sentence 64 is asking about..  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   10:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * LOL - 'correct' is the problematic word, here. The first obvious answer to the question, is "No, it is not correct to do this, because it violates the rule".  The second obvious answer is "Yes, it is perfectly correct to do this, because it's functional".  There is no condition under which one would be forced to violate the rule that all sentences begin with capital letters. There are obvious conditions where one might choose to violate the rule, and if one so chooses there is no 'Grammar Strike Force' that will swoop out of the sky like Israeli paratroopers and shoot you dead.


 * Now, I suggest we all retire and read the collected works of e.e. cummings.   -- Ludwigs 2  19:37, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the input in the discussion above. I appreciate the feedback. Thanks, especially, to Jack of Oz. Your reply makes a great deal of sense. That is, thinking of the letter "g" as a visual symbol. That seems to reconcile the problem at hand. Thank you! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 19:14, 3 July 2010 (UTC))

Latin translation / Charles V
I'm preparing on entry for Wikiquote on the alleged Charles V aphorism "I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse".

Can anyone translate the two Latin versions giving in Girolamo Fabrizi d'Acquapendente's 1601 De Locutione:
 * Unde solebat, ut audio, Carolus V Imperator dicere, Germanorum linguam esse militarem: Hispanorum amatoriam: Italorum oratoriam: Gallorum nobilem.
 * When Emperor Charles V used to say, as I hear, that the language of the Germans was military; that of the Spaniards pertained to love; that of the Italians was oratorical; that of the French was noble.

Ehrenkater (talk) 19:51, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Alius vero, qui Germanus erat, retulit, eundem Carolum Quintum dicere aliquando solitum esse; Si loqui cum Deo oporteret, se Hispanice locuturum, quod lingua Hispanorum gravitatem maiestatemque prae se ferat; si cum amicis, Italice, quod Italorum dialectus familiaris sit; si cui blandiendum esset, Gallice, quod illorum lingua nihil blandius; si cui minandum aut asperius loquendum, Germanice, quod tota eorum lingua minax, aspera sit ac vehemens.

Thanks. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 19:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed another, who was German, related that the same Charles V sometimes used to say: if it was necessary to talk with God, that he would talk in Spanish, which language suggests itself for the graveness and majesty of the Spaniards; if with friends, in Italian, for the dialect of the Italians was one of familiarity; if to caress someone, in French, for no language is tenderer than theirs; if to threaten someone or to speak harshly to them, in German, for their entire language is threatening, rough and vehement.

Ehrenkater (talk) 20:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Brilliant! Thank you. I've updated the Wikiquote page for Charles V, with a credit commented in. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 20:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Just a small correction, "quod" means "because", so it is "because Spanish lends itself towards majesty and greatness", etc. "Blandus" also means "flattering", so I think he probably means he speaks French to flatter people (in the original, slightly pejorative sense). Adam Bishop (talk) 01:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And Unde should be "Whence" or "Wherefore" rather than "When". Deor (talk) 02:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've adjusted the Wikisource page a bit. Also, "unde" and "vero" do not need to be translated, because they must be referring back to the previous sentences, which aren't quoted (they are basically punctuation, when modern punctuation marks didn't exist). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * quod lingua Hispanorum gravitatem maiestatemque prae se ferat - "because (reportedly) the language of the Spanish exhibits (litt. "carries before itself") graveness and majesty". Iblardi (talk) 10:54, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Congruent

 * I've confirmed with the front desk that Monday, June 28th is free and I've booked us for 10 AM. Please let me know if that's congruent with your schedules.

Is the above sentence proper with the underlined word (the email was sent to 2 people in the hopes that all 3 of our schedules would match)?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 19:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not a good wording. But it is understandable. Better would be: "Please tell me if your schedule permits that." Or, "...if that fits in with your schedule." Even "OK" is fine, as in "Please let me know if that's OK with your schedules."


 * I think the problem with "congruent" in that usage is that congruent has a meaning that implies exactness of fit. Either that appointment is going to fit or it is not going to fit, but it is unlikely to fit exactly. Bus stop (talk) 20:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I find no problem with it. --ColinFine (talk) 23:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * In American usage that's a bit over-stuffy. we'd probably say "If that aligns with..." or "if that agrees with...".  Congruent is a word that's rarely if ever used outside of grade-school geometry here, though I think most people would get the sense of it.  it's not improper, but it would have pretty much the same feel as someone saying "Didst thou bring thy iPad?" -- Ludwigs 2  00:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * To revise my response, I think it depends on whether you want to find fault with it or not. In its favor, it is perfectly clear, and it is very brief. I think it has a crisp and solid feel to it. But it is innovative. For "congruent with your schedule" I only find two Google hits. Bus stop (talk) 03:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I understood what was being communicated, which is really the only test that needs to be passed, but it doesn't feel right to me. Congruency involves the comparison of two things (i.e. "Are these two triangles congruent?"), but the things compared don't seem to match. What you should be asking is whether everyone's schedules have a congruent opening to allow the meeting to take place, but the sentence as phrased is comparing the meeting with the schedule. If you had two pairs of pants with holes in them, you could ask if the holes were congruent, but you wouldn't normally ask if the patch was congruent to the hole - you'd just ask whether it covers the hole or not. I think Bus stop's suggestion was best; just use "fits in" instead. Matt Deres (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

loved the "Didst thou bring thy I Pad?"...LOL what makes wikipedia interesting in the midst of such serious exhanges and sometimes angry exchanges too, is the presence of such healthy and sparkling humor... Thanks Ludwigs ... thanks to you I laughed out loud in the Emergency Room today Fragrantforever 04:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Greek and Russian I think
What does the following words mean?

εΛΛHN?N

T?N

Where the ? is 'o' with an underline.

Googlemeister (talk) 20:40, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "Of the Greeks (Hellenes)", I would assume... AnonMoos (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * P.S. των Ελληνων in real Greek Unicode text... AnonMoos (talk) 20:52, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

How about the Russian

ПPAБM

Googlemeister (talk) 21:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That says 'PRABM'. Looks like an abbreviation but I couldn't find any reference to it.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Would it make sense if the first letter is Л? I am having trouble deciphering the script. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Googlemeister (talk • contribs) 21:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

των Ελλήνων, with all caps ΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ, means "of the Greeks". It is the genitive plural form of Έλληνας, "a Greek". The capital letter Ω ω is usually handwritten as an underlined O. However, Googlemeister has given Ελλήνων first and then των. That could make the sense depend on the context, I presume. --Магьосник (talk) 22:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

About the Cyrillic code, I have no idea. Here's the sequence of letters entirely with Cyrillic characters (to copy and use search engines): ПРАБМ in upper case, прабм in lower case. If the first letter is Л, then it's ЛРАБМ in upper case and лрабм in lower case. ПРАБМ very vaguely reminds me of the Russian word ПРОБЛЕМ (проблем), meaning "problem", where one has misspelt ‹о› as ‹а› (this wouldn't affect the pronunciation), and skipped the letters ле that are essentially the consonant Л and the stressed vowel Е. Isn't there any further context you could give us? --Магьосник (talk) 22:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It might be a coin or a medal of some sort. The object is pretty beat up, and has 1888  and 2 1/2 on one side and what looks like a heraldic lion on a shield on the other.  After a good rinse in water I see ?Ъ?*ИHEHCTO ПPAБM CILIA БЪ*ГAVЯИ, but the writing goes in a circle so I am not sure which word is first.  The * look like a mirror image upside down r and the ? are damaged.  The back is I think *BБ TOTИHK$ ($ is a backwards K) ИПO*OBИHA.  Since there are a couple of letters on this that do not appear in our Cyrillic alphabet, either they are written in an archaic form, or this is not actually Russian but Bulgarian or Czech or something.  Googlemeister (talk) 13:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * БЪ*ГAVЯИ looks tantalizingly like БЪЛГАРИЯ, supporting the hypothesis that it's Bulgarian. I don't know whether Czech has ever been written in the Cyrillic alphabet. Any chance of photographing or scanning the coin/medal and uploading a pic of it for us? +Angr 14:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey I figured it out! it is a 2 1/2 Stotinki coin from Bulgaria. http://worldcoingallery.com/countries/img7/29-8.jpg  Googlemeister (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow! From where did you get that coin? I'm bizarrely amazed to see it.
 * The image on the left is actually the back of the coin. The text there says, СЪЕДИНЕНИЕТО ПРАВИ СИЛАТА, "Unity makes strength", which is the official motto of Bulgaria (see the infobox of the article), and also БЪЛГАРИЯ, "Bulgaria". The image should be the coat of arms of Bulgaria. The text on the front side of the coin, on the right, says, ДВѢ СТОТИНКИ И ПОЛОВИНА, literally "two stotinki and a half", and there's the year 1888. Note that the word for "two", which appears on the coin as ДВѢ, or, as it would be in lower case, двѣ, is nowadays spelt ДВЕ or две. This is due to a reform of the Bulgarian spelling of 1945, which included abolishing the letter Ѣ and substituting it with either Я or Е.
 * And, you have mistaken the section title. That's Bulgarian, not Russian. --Магьосник (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, "From where did you get that" is a rhetorical question that expresses amazement and does not necessarily demand an answer. --Магьосник (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Several countries have as their motto "L'Union fait la Force", if I remember correctly... AnonMoos (talk) 18:58, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese verb form
Hi. I'm having difficulties with:

お金を入れて、...

This is the start of a sentence; the rest of the sentence doesn't matter. The translation is "Put in your money, ...". As far as I can figure out, 入れて is the て-form of the potential form of 入る, but I don't see how that could amount to the instruction "put in". Is this an idiom of some sort, or have I misunderstood the verb form? 86.184.236.103 (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC).
 * I haven't checked this, but I think it is the て-form or the transitive verb 入れる, meaning "insert". --ColinFine (talk) 23:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you are absolutely right. I looked up 入れる in the dictionary but couldn't find it. Now I realise that this is because it is pronounced いれる. I assumed, by anology with 入る, that it was はいれる. Thanks! 86.184.236.103 (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC).
 * There's the issue - those pesky transitive/intransitive similar verbs in Japanese, in this case 入る/入れる. Steewi (talk) 01:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Especially since there are actually two intransitive forms, one pronounced はいる and one pronounced いる. Paul Davidson (talk) 05:37, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * And the fact that 入れる　（はいれる） also exists as the shorter colloquial form of the potential form of the verb doesn't help us non-natives much either. However, context would usually sort these problems out. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  10:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought that 入る （はいる） was a "u"-verb, and that 入れる (はいれる) was the standard potential form, not a shortened colloquial form. Am I getting confused? Are you saying that the full form is 入られる （はいられる)? 86.135.29.18 (talk) 13:11, 4 June 2010 (UTC).
 * You are right. 入れる(はいれる) is the standard potential form, not a shortened form. 入られる(はいられる) is used as a respectful form, but cannot be used as a potential form. Oda Mari (talk) 14:28, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Yup. My mistake. It's Friday. :) --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks OM. 86.185.79.56 (talk) 19:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC).

Chinese pronunciation
I'm reading a rather old work from 1946 that, in part, discusses the way speakers of different Chinese dialects are prompted to recognize words as the same even if pronounced differently: "'When a man from Peiping says pien4 'throughout' and a man from Nanking says p’eĩ4 for what both agree to be the same (general) word, they say that they pronounce them differently. But if the latter said peĩ4, then they would say that they pronounce the word 'alike', except for some slight difference in local accent which they cannot and do not care to describe.'" I'd like to add this example to Wikipedia, but I'm not sure about the transcription, particularly the number, which I assume indicates tone somehow. Anyone know how to convert them to IPA? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 23:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If that's Wade-Giles, then I guess it would correspond to Pinyin biàn, pèi, and bèi, but I don't know what that tilde means... ? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 00:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * (I suppose it might be something specific to the Nanjing dialect and not noted in any of the orthographies for putonghua...) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 00:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Since tilde in one dialect's forms seems to correspond to an "n" consonant in the other dialect, I suspect it would mean nasalization of the vowel... AnonMoos (talk) 01:00, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the characteristics of Nanjing dialect is that it's quite nasal. Part of that is that they don't distinguish between -n and -ng. So yes, the ~ is referring to nasalisation. The apostrophe refers to aspiration. So pian4 = PY bian4, and p'ei~ = IPA [phei~]. I suspect the context of the quote is referring to differing qualities of aspiration determined by tone between dialects. Steewi (talk) 01:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're referring to Yuen-Ren Chao, he was a very influential linguist with a worldwide reputation, but was known for inventing many different transcription systems... AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is Chao. Does the number 4 correspond to a low tone in Chinese, then? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]  05:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, for Mandarin at least, it usually corresponds to the falling/departing tone (51). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 05:23, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]  15:31, 5 June 2010 (UTC)