Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 2

= March 2 =

Native American accent
Is there a name for the accent of English sometimes spoken by Native Americans? I realize it may be an artificial stereotype...I'm thinking of the Simpsons, for example, where whoever does the voices for Natives and Canadians uses the same accent. But there is some reality to it. Maybe it's limited to an older generation so they may have learned English as a second language, and I guess then it would depend on their first language. I don't see anything about it on Wikipedia and I'm not really sure what to look for. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As a layman, I didn't find it at North American English regional phonology or the related articles. That article doesn't seem to discuss cultural variants at all other than one link to African American Vernacular English.  Anyway, again as a layman, I would venture to point at the attached graphic, and claim that there are probably many accents of English spoken by Native Americans, as influenced by the dozens of Indigenous languages of the Americas.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Recently, on a speaker-phone, I overheard a Native American woman from New Mexico or Arizona. I assumed she was a Caucasian from Wisconsin before being corrected.  So maybe North Central American English will provide leads. 63.17.46.84 (talk) 03:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * By "stereotype" do you mean Hollywood Indian-speak like "How (greeting)", "heap big", "many moons", etc.? Outside of that, I'm not sure that there's any strong popular conception among inhabitants of the U.S. as to how Indians would be expected to talk... AnonMoos (talk) 10:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There does seem to be a variety of dialects. William Leap, who has written several books on the topic, calls these dialects "American Indian English" Walt Wolfram and Natalie Schilling-Estes, in their American English: dialects and variation talk about the "broad spectrum of variation in Native American English".
 * "among Native American groups there are distinct varieties of English, each with phonology, syntax, and discourse features specific to it. For example, a feature of Indian English from the Northern Ute Reservation is devoicing of Vowels in certain positions (Leap 1992, 144); features of Lumbee Indians of North Carolina, are finite be, as in These girls in the picture be(s) my sisters, distinct from the habitual be of AAVE; relic be forms rather than have in constructions such as I'm been to the store (for I've been to the store); and regularized were rather than was, as in I weren't there, she weren't there (Wolfram/Schilling-Estes 1998, 115, 182)," (Dittmar et al, Sociolinguistics /Soziolinguistik. An International Handbook of the Science of Language and Society, de Gruyter, 2006 )
 * Though I'm not a native speaker, I too had noticed this in movies and television. Graham Greene (a Canadian actor :-) often does this, e.g., and like 63.17, some aspects always sounded North Central American English to me, particularly the monophthongs. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:09, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The stereotype accent is apparent in the episode "Red Man's Greed" of South Park, too. If you can find videos of Floyd Red Crow Westerman speaking on YouTube you'll hear a good example of it. I don't know whether there's a specific name for the accent though. In some ways it reminds me of the accent of Hispanics in South Texas - which is not a stereotypical Mexican accent by a long shot. +Angr 11:17, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Graham Greene and Red Crow are also good examples. That's why I was wondering if it was something to do with an older generation; younger people, say Adam Beach or the guy who replaced Red Crow in the Lakota commercials, don't seem to talk the same way. The reason I was asking was that I was listening to Gwich'in legends on CBC radio, and the narrators all had the distinctive accent. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The woman I heard on the phone (North Central American English) was maybe 30ish. I wasn't in Wisconsin at the time, but I immediately assumed she was from Wisconsin, though I would have believed Minnesota.  It was striking.  Let alone being Native American, I was amazed (and amused -- the Wisconsin accent is funny) that she was from the southwest -- though now I see that I was just ignorant. 63.17.41.138 (talk) 03:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I have heard Canadian Indians (Natives) speak very differently from even the Caucasian Canadians. Often the word "there" for example, is pronounced more like "dare", and a typical greeting would be quickly spoken "hay dare!" Sometimes as well something like "how's" (just shortened "how is"), will be almost pronounced "how-zsh", with the H sounding audible! Native American English as well I find makes heavy use of the word "eh", as a question or a filler, often many times within the same sentence. Certain words are spoken with stress at odd syllables, sometimes making for a strange sounding accent for unfamiliar ears. Parts of words are sometimes exaggerated with other parts suppressed. For example, "government" might be really high-pitched in the middle, "gUVER-mint" "situation" might be "sitchu-AY-shun" or "syllable" as "sILL-uhbl" You will really have to hear it for yourself to make any conclusions.

French Translation
1523-1531 : en 1523, la succession de Suzanne de Bourbon, morte sans laisser d'enfants, fut contestée par Louise de Savoie, duchesse d'Angoulême, mère du roi de France François Ier, comme lui revenant en tant que plus proche héritière de la défunte. Elle gagna son procès, qui fit entrer le connétable de Bourbon dans le camp de Charles Quint. En 1531, le duché entra dans le domaine royal pour la première fois. 1544-1545 : Charles de France (1522-1545), alias Charles d'Angoulême Fils de France, duc d'Angoulême (1531-1540), duc d'Orléans (Charles II, 1536-1540), duché de Châtellerault (1540), comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis et de la Marche (1540), duc de Bourbon (Charles IV) (1544-1545) Fils du roi de France François Ier et de la duchesse de Bretagne Claude de France, petit-fils de Louise de Savoie. En 1544, le duché entra pour la première fois dans un apanage, mais le prince mourut peu après. À sa mort, le duché fit retour à la Couronne. 1566-1574 : Henri de France (1551-1589), duc d'Angoulême (1551-1574), duc d'Orléans (1560-1574), duc d'Anjou (1567-1573), duc de Bourbon (1566-1574) comte d'Auvergne (1569-1574), comte de Forez, d'Agen, de Rouergue (1566-1574). En 1566, pour la seconde et dernière fois, le duché de Bourbon constitua une partie d'un apanage, en l'occurrence celui du futur Henri III. À son accession au trône en 1574, le duché fit retour à la Couronne.
 * 1523-1531 : In 1523, the succession of S de B, who died without issue, was contested by Louise de Savoie, duchesse d'Angoulême, the mother of Francois I, king of France. She argued that it reverted to her as closest relation of the deceased.  She won the suit, with the result that the constable (this probably should be translated differently) of Bourbon joined the side of Charles Quint.  In 1531 the duchy became part of the royal estate (not sure about this bit either) for the first time.
 * 1544-1545 : Charles de France (...long list of french titles...). Son of François I, king of France, and the duchesse de Bretagne Claude de France, grandson of Louise de Savoie.  In 1544 the duchy was granted (to him??) as a privilege for the first time, but the prince died soon after.  On his death the duchy returned to the crown.
 * 1566-1574 : Henri de France (...long list of titles...) in 1566, for the second and final time, the duchy of Bourbon was granted as a privilege, in this case to the future Henri III. On his accession to the throne in 1574 the duchy returned to the crown.
 * NB "apanage" probably has a sense I don't understand here, best to check with a native speaker Tinfoilcat (talk) 10:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Even for a French native speaker, the meaning of apanage is not the usual one. In this case an apanage is a fief given to a prince of royal blood in compensation to the fact that only the eldest son of the king could succeed to him. Reference (in French) here. — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Le duché de Bourbon fut octroyé en 1661 au Grand Condé. Son petit-fils Louis IV Henri de Bourbon-Condé (1692-1740), premier ministre de 1723 à 1726, puis son petit-fils Louis VI Henri de Bourbon-Condé (1756-1830), portèrent nommément le titre, à côté de celui de prince de Condé. Le titre de duc de Bourbon était en effet un titre d'attente de celui de Prince de Condé.


 * The duchy of Bourbon was granted to Louis, Prince of Condé in 1661. His grandson Louis IV Henri de Bourbon-Condé, prime minister from 1723 to 1726, then his grandson Louis VI Henri de Bourbon-Condé, used the title, as well as that of prince de Condé.  The title of duc de Bourbon was really a preliminary to that of Prince de Condé. Tinfoilcat (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

1661-1686 : Louis de Bourbon dit le Grand Condé (1621-1686), premier prince du sang, connu d'abord sous le titre de duc d'Enghien, 4e prince de Condé, duc de Bourbon (1661), duc d'Enghien, duc de Montmorency, duc de Châteauroux, duc de Bellegarde, duc de Fronsac, gouverneur du Berry, comte de Sancerre (1646-1686), comte de Charolais (à partir de 1684), pair de France. 1667-1670, Henri de Bourbon-Condé, titré duc de Bourbon, né à Paris le 5 novembre 1667, mort le 5 juillet 1670, petit-fils du précédent. Il était le fils de Henri-Jules de Bourbon (1643-1709), premier prince du sang, prince de Condé (1686-1709), titulaire régulier du titre de duc de Bourbon (1686-1709) et fils du Grand Condé. 1670-1709 : Louis de Bourbon (1668-1710), prince du sang, duc de Bourbon, duc de Montmorency (1668-1689) puis duc d'Enghien (1689-1709), puis 6e prince de Condé, comte de Sancerre (1709-1710), comte de Charolais. N'ayant été prince de Condé que quelque mois, il est connu sous son titre de duc de Bourbon, qu'il porta quasi toute sa vie. Il était appelé à la Cour « monsieur le Duc », ayant perdu le « monsieur le Prince » au profit du premier prince du Sang, le duc de Chartres. 1709-1736 : Louis Henri de Bourbon (1692-1740), prince du sang, 7e prince de Condé (1710), Grand maître de France, duc de Bourbon, duc d'Enghien et duc de Guise, pair de France, duc de Bellegarde et comte de Sancerre. Fils du précédent. 1736-1772 : Louis-Joseph de Bourbon (1736-1818), prince du sang, Grand maître de France ; duc de Bourbon, duc d'Enghien puis 8e prince de Condé (1740), comte de Sancerre, comte de Charolais et Gien. Fils du précédent. 1756-1830 : Louis-Henri de Bourbon (1756-1830) prince du sang. Il fut le 9e duc d'Enghien (1756-1772), et duc de Bourbon (1772-1818) et enfin, à la mort de son père en 1818, le 9e – et dernier – prince de Condé. Ayant perdu son fils le duc d'Enghien en 1804, le titre régulier de duc de Bourbon s'éteignit avec lui. Il légua sa fortune, et ses châteaux de Chantilly et de Bourbon au jeune Henri d'Orléans (1822-1897), duc d'Aumale.
 * Please see Translation for how to request translation of an entire article from a different-language Wikipedia. — Kpalion(talk) 09:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This passage actually contains mainly a relatively small vocabulary of genealogical/dynastic terms arranged in stereotyped phrases, so it should be relatively easy to translate most of it using a dictionary, if you know only a very little bit about French grammar... AnonMoos (talk) 10:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Cursing
Are they any languages that don't have swear words? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 09:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've heard that claim made of Japanese, but I can't confirm it. Allegedly, the strongest insult in the language is baka, roughly "fool" or "idiot", and the strongest thing you can say when you're angry is "I don't like it!" But maybe someone here who actually knows Japanese (KageTora?) can confirm or deny. +Angr 09:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Kuso ("shit") is a Japanese swear word. decltype (talk) 10:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * First we would have to define 'swearword'. There are plenty of words or phrases in many languages which are used as curses and so on, yet may sound comical in other languages. 'Baka' is used as a swearword in exactly the same way as 'stupid' is used in English. If you want to get really rough, you could call someone 'masukakiyarou' ('wanker'), but I've only ever seen this once and that was in the Japanese translation of Bravo Two Zero where the word was used quite often in the English version. There are plenty of other words one could use, though, so it's not true that Japanese doesn't have them. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:25, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd agree heavily with KageTora's initial assertion -- what is a swearword? Certainly there are words that would get you thrown out of a 3rd grade class and they'd mark you down for 'swearing'...but that would likely include the terms erectile dysfunction, which is hardly a swear.  I'd say it all began with blasphemy, and somehow has trickled down to include the sexual, even though the latter has nothing to do with swearing (i.e. using God's name in vain) or cursing God (blaspheming/heresy).  DRosenbach  ( Talk 13:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * A language without taboo words would be like a language without colour words - you can imagine it existing as a artificial construct, but not as a working language. In contexts where the usual taboo words are censored - in broadcasting or publishing, for example - then other words become co-opted to serve as taboo words in their place - see smeg for a well-known example. We have articles on Esperanto profanity and profanity in American Sign Language. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And in my programming class you could have been thrown out of the classroom for using "inappropriate" words like goto and label. — Kpalion(talk) 15:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a minor clarification (and not to undermine Gandalf's point), there are languages without color words (or, at least, very few of them). See Linguistic relativity and the color naming debate.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]  19:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You can be very rude in Japanese. The difference is often that the domain of swearwords and vulgarity in different languages varies such that it might not seem vulgar or insulting in direct translation. Steewi (talk) 06:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

What's the word for this identification scheme?
You start at entry 1, and entry 1 asks you a question and gives you two options. If the first option matches the thing you're trying to identify, you get directed to some entry (say entry 4). If the second option matches, you get directed to some other entry (say entry 2). I think the word might start with "di-".

Example: I'm trying to identify a bird. Entry 1 asks me what color it's beak is: yellow or some other color? The bird's beak is some other color, and next to some other color it says "go to entry 2", so I do. When I get there I get asked whether the bird has webbed feet. The bird does have webbed feet and I get directed to entry 7. Repeat until finally I'm told what bird I'm looking at. --71.198.7.102 (talk) 10:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * An identification key. Alansplodge (talk) 11:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Particularly, a dichotomous single access key. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You might also be interested in flowchart. 195.35.160.133 (talk) 12:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Martin.


 * Or expert system. --Anonymous, 04:11 UTC, March 3, 2010.


 * I've seen it on websites which identify fonts. Always reminds me of Guess Who?. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  13:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Tree search? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.242.68 (talk) 00:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

"S" sound between S and SH used by some English speakers
I've wondered about this for a while. Some speakers in English (and other languages; I've heard it in Greek) use an S sound that is intermediate between [s] and [ʃ] -- an example is (the speech of) Bob Costas of NBC. I've gone and looked for this on IPA, S, and a couple of other articles, but didn't find anything. 1) What's this softening/changing of the S called, and 2) is there an IPA symbol for it? Cheers, -- Flyguy649 talk 15:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Costas" is a homophone of "cost us", either of which sounds like a normal "s" to me (i.e. like the leading "s" in "sounds", as opposed to the trailing "s", which is more like "z"). Can you give an example of an "s" that's not in that intermediate category you're describing? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Flyguy is talking about the way Costas speaks, not the pronunciation of his name. -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, as Coneslayer said. -- Flyguy649 talk 15:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess you might mean apical . It's fairly common in languages like Greek, Finnish or Dutch which lack a phonological distinction between [s] and [ʃ].—Emil J. 15:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * A mild lateral lisp is also a possibility. Deor (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)OK, he's talking about Costas' own speech pattern. People have various ways of saying the "s". In general, it can sound like hissing snakes, which is why singers often try to nearly supress it, especially when in a choir. I've never noticed it in Costas, but we're both midwesterners, so maybe it's a midwestern thing. Or it could be a variant on a slight lisp. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You can (hopefully) hear what I'm talking about in this video, in the words, "so" and "single" in the first 7 seconds. He uses a regular [s] at the end of "Olympics" at 10 seconds. For the record I speak with a central Canadian accent, having grown up in Toronto. I also learned Greek at a young age. I find I can often hear a lot of "flavours" of sounds that some others don't. -- Flyguy649 talk 16:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It sound like a perfectly fine [s] to me (although perhaps I just lack the perceptual distinction that you have). Like EmilJ says, it might be a bit more apical than most people's, but still well within the range of a prototypical [s]. (A disclaimer, though: for the past couple hours I've been chopping [s]s off of syllables in Praat and listening to them over and over, so my judgment is not normal anymore.) r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 16:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've noticed this phenomenon myself. It seems that some people (Costas included) make their s's more postalveolar.  The retraction symbol  can be used.  Some speakers sound like they're using a retroflex fricative, though there's articulatory variation in the latter symbol that includes sounds that may actually just be .  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]  19:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for responding. -- Flyguy649 talk 17:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * If I understand what you're talking about, listen to some of the songs by Pink (singer). She has this pronunciation.  It's especailly notable in "Please Don't Leave Me".  Woogee (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This issue sounds related to something that is important in Indic languages. The Devanagari alphabet includes three different s-like sounds (sibilants).  They differ based on the position of the tongue.  The "dental" s (स) is like English s.  Another is a palatal (श), and the third is specifically a retroflex (ष).  Most people can hear the difference between the first of these (स  as in English "sin" or "sun") and the last two.  The distintion between ष ("cerebral s" or "retroflex s", like English "shut" or or "shine" or "bush") and श ("palatal s", like English "sure", made in the palate) is more subtle but may be close to the sound you are trying to pin down. Buddhipriya (talk) 00:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Years ago I noticed that some people from Brooklyn, particularly African Americans, often pronounced "s" as "sh" when it began a word. Since then, I've noticed this around the country, again particularly among African-Americans ... who may have been the demographic target of a recent ad for the US Army which had the hook, "It's not just shtrong -- it's army shtrong."  Maybe hip-hop is spreading it geographically?  Just a guess. 63.17.41.138 (talk) 04:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * the phenomenon 3.17.41.138 talks about is happening in Australia too, especially when the s is followed by a t, so that we too pronounce it shtrong, as in the example above - or even when we say the name of our country, which for a while was Straya, but is now Shtraya. Adambrowne666 (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Shpeak for yourshelf. --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a special type of 's' in use in Scouse, produced by widening the lips (almost to a smile) and loosely pronouncing the 's' with the tongue. I personally use it when I'm purposefully speaking in my dialect (which is Scouse). It gives a beathy, almost 'sh'-like quality to the sound (not anywhere like Sean Connery's accent, though). I have, however, never seen it documented in articles/books about Scouse but it definitely exists. --   KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  12:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)