Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 21

= March 21 =

&c.


What does "FUR" and "&c." mean?174.3.113.245 (talk) 06:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * &c. means et cetera or etc. FUR seams to mean "Fair Use Rationale." --Kjoonlee 06:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what FUR typically means in wikipedia, anyway. Regarding ampersand-with-c, the ampersand is a stylized "et". "&c." used to be used in print a lot, not so much anymore, but it's perfectly legitimate, as it's really just a stylistic way of writing "etc." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: "et" is Latin for "and". --Tango (talk) 09:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. The ampersand by itself is used to mean "and". The word "ampersand" is a slurring of "and, per se [by itself], and." "&" can often be seen in old samplers as kind of like a 27th letter of the alphabet: "A through Z, and, by itself, 'and'". That's the concept. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * What about the period?174.3.113.245 (talk) 00:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The period's there because it's an abbreviation. Just like "etc." has a period. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 00:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way et cetera has its own article. Rckrone (talk) 19:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Resources for listening to Chinese
I'd quite like to find some free online resource for listening to Chinese to try to get my ear trained to hear the tones. This would probably be Mandarin, but since I'm just trying to hear the tones I'm not that fussed. A YouTube video with accompanying subtitles or text, drawing attention to the different tones, would be super.

The reason I'm asking here, rather than just searching, is because I've seen some awful videos supposedly teaching, for example, how to speak with a British accent. I can see and hear how people could be led astray by those, and I can hear how awful the advice and accent are in these cases. I have no way of telling if a person is speaking bad Chinese, or getting the tones wrong. So I'm hoping to be guided towards something that isn't laughable :) 86.177.124.127 (talk) 16:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Take this one as a first step. HOOTmag (talk) 17:10, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You can try renting some Chinese films. See Cinema of China for some recommendations. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 20:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This may be unorthodox but my recommendation would be to visit the Youtube channels of both of the following individuals: http://www.youtube.com/user/laoshu505000 and http://www.youtube.com/user/Glossika. They both speak Chinese well, particularly Glossika. Neither is a native speaker, but their videos, especially Glossika's would be a very good introduction. Glossika speaks multiple Chinese languages/dialects/topolects. Make sure you choose Mandarin. You might also leave a message on their comment boards and ask their recommendations for good videos to watch, and also you can look in their "Favorites" to see if they have any introductory videos linked. If any Ref Desk regulars find linking to real people's channels inappropriate, you can delete this advice. --152.3.129.38 (talk) 20:58, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that's the best resource just for getting used to the sound of Chinese. I just watched a couple of Glossika's videos and, no offense to him intended, but most of it seems to be him spending a lot of time explaining stuff. Perhaps a good resource for learning something about the structure of Chinese, but I had to dig through many minutes worth of video before I managed to hear any Chinese at all. If someone's just trying to see what tones sound like, I think temporary immersion (i.e., watching a movie or a skit or something) will be better. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Standard Mandarin has a link (11th of 12) to Learn to Speak Chinese like a Chinese.–Wavelength (talk) 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not very helpful either. The first section has tones presented in isolation, and the second is read so slowly it's not going to help anyone who's trying to "get their ears trained" to hear what they sound like in real speech. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 22:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * One solution would be to search for TV broadcasts in Mandarin...look up any of the stations in w:Category:Chinese-language_television and find them on Youtube (e.g. CCTV in Mainland; TTV, CTV in Taiwan; ATV, RTV, TVB, Phoenix Television in Hong Kong)--达伟 (talk) 23:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I found very useful. Steewi (talk) 00:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No need to go to Youtube - CCTV, being a public broadcaster, makes most of its programs available online for free.
 * Phoenix TV (ifeng.com) also has a range of online content. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:26, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Movies may be both educational and fun. 124.214.131.55 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC).
 * Movies might help one to learn slang, but they are unreliable for teaching formal language. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That depends on the movie. And the OP never said he is trying to learn "formal language"; he just said he wants to get a feel for the tones. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 13:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The following might provide some useful listening material: http://www.youtube.com/user/ChineseLearn; http://www.youtube.com/user/PeggyTeachesChinese; http://www.youtube.com/user/chineseclass101; http://www.youtube.com/user/immediatechinese; http://www.youtube.com/user/ilovechinesecn; http://www.youtube.com/user/chinesebits --达伟 (talk) 12:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

What's the word for...
I'm thinking of a particular phenomenon, where someone describes some position with a word or phrase, meaning it derisively, but then the defenders of that position adopt the phrase, and use it to describe themselves. I'm hoping there's some snappy word or phrase to describe this, and I know if anyone can find it for me, the bright folks at the reference desk can. Thanks. 24.98.14.73 (talk) 20:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Adoption. Turning the tables on. Taking it to heart. Defiance. Bus stop (talk) 20:47, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * See reappropriation. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Sluzzelin. "reappropriation" is the term used to describe what's happened to words like nigger and gay, and what some people have tried with chink. "reclaiming" is also used. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Mocking" comes to mind. "Rallying cry" could be related too. That also happened with "Yankee". Even today it's used as an anti-American slur, while Americans sing patriotic songs about Yankees on July 4th. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:59, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Although it's still a slur if it's said by someone from Boston ;) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or in the south, for that matter. But it depends on the context. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * An interesting example (which, yes, I know you didn't actually ask for) is the term Big Bang which an early opponent of that theory, the Steady State theory proponent Fred Hoyle, was generally believed to have coined as a slightly derisory epithet (though he later denied this intention) but which came to be adopted. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 22:36, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone. I was looking for something a bit snazzier, perhaps, but appropriation will serve my purpose well enough. Llamabr (talk) 23:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * These answers don't come cheaply. We'll be sending you an appropriation bill. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Co-opting. Vranak (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Reclaimed word is an article similar to reappropriation. One early example is suffragette. From our article:
 * Suffragette is a term originally coined by the Daily Mail newspaper as a derogatory label for the more militant members of the late-19th and early-20th century movement for women's suffrage in the United Kingdom, in particular members of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU). However, after former and then active members of the movement began to reclaim the word, the term became a label without negative connotations. It derives from the word "suffrage", meaning the right to vote.
 * BrainyBabe (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Although the term "Suffragist" was the term preferred by the group, yes? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)