Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 26

= March 26 =

Accent question
Every time I hear Jeremy Clarkson say the word "Michigan" on Top Gear, he pronounces the first syllable like the first syllable of the name "Mitchell". Is this just a(nother) slight at Americans or do people with his accent regularly pronounce it that way? Dismas |(talk) 04:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Whatever the reason, I somehow doubt it's meant as a slight. The pronuncations of English words are notoriously unpredictable from their spellings, and non-USians have to keep in mind an even more arcane set of rules for the pronunciation of American place names.  Such as:
 * Arkansas does not rhyme with Kansas
 * Connecticut starts out as /connet-/
 * Los Angeles is not pronounced the way Victoria de los Ángeles said her surname
 * and various others.
 * Sounding out Michigan, Chicago and some others exactly as spelt is not a hanging offence. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   04:14, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Arkansas the state (AR-kan-saw) doesn't even rhyme with Arkansas the river (ar-KAN-zas). Then there's the state of Missouri, some of whose residents pronounce it mi-ZUR-ee and some pronounce it mi-ZUR-uh. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And some residents pronounce it "misery", which is actually a pretty accurate reflection of what life there must be like! r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 05:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And some pronounce Illinois (ill-i-noy) as "ill-i-noyz". Hence the corrective and ironic expression, "there's no 'noise' in Illinois". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The Michigan article indicates that it's a Frenchified spelling, which accounts for the confusion. The Indian name is transliterated as "Mishigama", but the French pronounce "ch" like "sh", hence they spelled it "ch". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not a slight. The standard pronunciation of Michigan in the UK - and in many Commonwealth countries - is with a hard ch as in Mitchell. It's no more a slight than when Americansregularly mispronounce the (UK) city names of Birmingham and Derby. Grutness...wha?  06:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * (Edit Conflict) In my experience as a fellow Brit (though not otherwise wishing to identify with Mr Clarkson), "Mitchigan" is the way I and most other Brits automatically pronounce it, with no notion that this might be considered a "slight." Given that the name is not one likely to occur very frequently in British discourse, the mispronunciation may be due to a common misassumption based on the spelling ("Mich-" words being rare in English and usually pronounced "Mick-" or "Mike-", never "Mish-"), or it may have been promulgated by someone influential in the past and stuck. Also bear in mind that part of Clarkson's schtick is to aim slightly ridiculous insults at virtually everyone and everything, and is not intended to be taken seriously (you do realise he is in part a comedian?) Brits are not generally inclined to go out of their way to slight America or Americans except in retaliation or when it otherwise seems justified - or no more so than for any other foreigners, anyway - but as stated this would not register in the British mind as an insult in the first place. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 06:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Michelin Tires - which I suspect is also a French derivation - "MISH-lin" or "MISH-e-lin", whichever it is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There's also the bigger picture: there's hardly a country that doesn't have places the names of which non-locals regularly mispronounce. The capital of Queensland is not Briz-bayn as many Americans would have it, but Briz-bən; the capital of Victoria is not Mel-born, but Mel-bən.  Even within this country, people get names wrong: Tasmanians pronounce Launceston as /lon-/, not /lawn-/, but most other Aussies fail to follow suit.  And the capital of China has changed from Peiping to Peking to Beijing, but still not anywhere really close to how the locals say it.  Is this a "slight" on the part of the rest of the world?  Surely not.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   08:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Then there's the fact we call Deutschland by the antiquated name "Germany". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a legend about Australian tourists visiting Loughborough (Luffborruh) and pronouncing it "Loogahboroogah". 213.122.41.91 (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And the legend about the foreign businessman in London trying to reach "Hig-hug-atty" when they were looking for "Highgate", pronounced "High-gate". Legends are rife. Tonywalton Talk 00:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

America is full of names that we regularly, but innocently, mangle in Britain. "Cali-for-nee-a", "Lass Vegas", "Los Annjel-eez", etc. It's not meant to be insulting, we just don't know any better. Lfh (talk) 13:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sam Yorty, the former Mayor of Los Angeles, was notorious for pronouncing the name as AN-juh-leez. He was always berated for it, but never changed.  Woogee (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that most of the state names have non-English etymologies, I doubt that those are pronounced anything like the originals; see List of U.S. state name etymologies. Even in Virginia, we have to have a pronunciation guide. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 15:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It works both ways. Like why do they say "Worcester" as "Wooster"? Or "Thames" as "Temz"? Or "Ralph" as "Rafe"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Taking your question seriously, Bugs, it's because, as with most languages, various pronunciations have evolved over the decades and centuries, but spelling change was greatly slowed by the introduction and use of of printing, so spellings lag behind. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 14:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I suspect that people who pronounce 'Ralph' as 'Rafe' in the UK today are limited to those who know HMS Pinafore. --ColinFine (talk) 17:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Or are referring to RVW. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   18:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * What about Ralph Fiennes?--达伟 (talk) 21:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. I would like to clear up one thing, namely that I was not offended by the way he pronounced Michigan. Nor am I offended by anything he says against America. I simply take it as either humor/humour or his opinion and that's that. He makes fun of so many American things that I just didn't know if there was a joke that I wasn't getting. Thanks for the responses, I've learned something today. Dismas |(talk) 21:38, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Spanish translation question
Which is correct Spanish for "I have lost my dove": Or is there a third, better, translation? If it makes any difference, I'm using the term dove figuratively to refer to a woman.
 * 1) He perdido mi paloma
 * 2) Yo perdido mi paloma

Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha?  06:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 2 is ungrammatical in Spanish (just as ungrammatical as saying "I taken a pill" in English). 1) looks like a correct translation to me. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 07:07, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Grutness...wha?  08:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * In some versions of Spanish (such as Caribbean Spanish), pronouns tend to be included in most utterances rather than implied by the verb. So in these versions of Spanish, the usual way of saying this would be  Yo he perdido mi paloma.  But even Caribbean speakers would recognize #1 as correct and #2 as incorrect.  Marco polo (talk) 14:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Does "He perdido mi paloma" not need the personal a? 173.66.150.151 (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * According to this site, the personal a is used with animals when "personal feelings" are attached to it. Since in this case the "dove" is actually a woman, I'd say "...a mi paloma" is probably right. -Elmer Clark (talk) 13:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Even better. Would the "Caribbean Spanish" that uses "yo he" include Mexico? That is, in Mexican Spanish would "Yo he perdido a mi paloma" be the most acceptable form? Grutness...wha?  22:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Mexico would not be included in the "Caribbean Spanish" description. Both forms are acceptable, but a native speaker in most Spanish-speaking countries (possibly excluding the Caribbean) would only mention the pronoun if there was confusion or for contrast.  For example, if someone said they had lost their turtle and you wanted to mentioned that you had lost your dove, you would include the pronoun, probably pronounced with emphasis, as an English speaker would: "Yo he perdido a mi paloma" (I have lost my dove.)  And as user Elmer Clark mentioned above, the "a" mentioned is used when we a person is the direct object, never objects or animals (IMO).  This case, if referring to a person, would likely be the exception.  --Cromwellt&#124;talk&#124;contribs 15:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, I am not a native Spanish-speaker, but have lived in Mexico for several years. --Cromwellt&#124;talk&#124;contribs 16:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

United States Census 2010 slogan
Why does the US Census uses the slogan "It's in our hands" and the phrase "You count!"? What does it mean? WJetChao (talk) 10:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be to encourage people to participate. As with voting, the poor are often underrepresented because of the self-fulfilling prophecy that their vote doesn't mean anything. The first one is an old expression, "in our hands" or "in your hands" means empowerment. "You count" is a play on words, since a census is a process of counting the citizenry, and to "count" is colloquial for "to be significant". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:07, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict -- Hi, Bugs) I don't know what their ad agency had in mind, but here's my take:
 * "Our" implies a shared responsibility (as in, we Americans through our responses create the census; it's not something we passively leave to the government).
 * "In our hands" figuratively means "it's up to us," with a sense that "we have the ability to make this happen." Meanwhile, you'll literally have your copy of the census form in your hands when you take it out of your mailbox.
 * "You count" likewise has multiple meanings: you can do the counting (the count of people in your household), and you matter (your inclusion is important for an accurate census).
 * --- OtherDave (talk) 11:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "You count" is a pun, in which count can mean "to ennumerate" - the census literally counts people - or "to have importance" - the Census Bureau would like to give the impression that every individual return matters to them. "It's in our hands" is, I think, another pun - the census form is literally "in your hands" (especially as every household in the US has to complete a physical form - it can't be completed online), and it is also part of the democratic process, which puts the country's governance "in your hands" to some degree. I don't think you should try to read too much into these slogans - maybe the Census Bureau used the same copywriters who thought up our own infamous "Wikipedia Forever" slogan. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe the same agency that came up with "There's an Edsel in your future"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * They're not trying "to give the impression that every individual return matters to them"; they're trying to remind people that responding to the census is important because the count determines how much federal money will find its way back to their own communities. Deor (talk) 13:47, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Also that census data won't ever get them thrown in jail, y'know, for the most part. ¦ Reisio (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The internment camps weren't exactly jails. And we were at war. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Unless we get into a war with Mexico, identifying people as Hispanic and/or Black doesn't seem like a potential problem. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:07, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure no one said that about Japan before WWII :p ¦ Reisio (talk) 17:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The modern equivalent would be asking someone if they're Muslim. The 2010 census has no questions about religion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It has questions about race, and "japanese" isn't a religion. ¦ Reisio (talk) 04:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The data hierarchy here is first, Address; second, names of people living at that address. For this reason, kids away at college are supposed to report that they are citizens of the school's community (and their parents are NOT to list them on their "home" form).
 * Locally, I understand one of the concerns -- one of the things that might be "discovered" by the census -- is that there are too many people living at an address, and that The Man will come after them when he finds out.
 * Whatever reasons Representative Bachman trumpets for not filling in the form completely -- please ignore her.
 * DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Michelle Bachmann is good evidence that anyone can get elected to Congress. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * While that might be true, Bugs, some on the left and some on the right are afraid of the the census--see the comments about Japanese internment above...so the skeptics or alarmists exists on both sides of the spectrum--达伟 (talk) 23:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, and if they end up under-represented they will have only themselves to blame. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Answers to "What if I provide false information?" (fines) "Do I have to fill the form in?" (yes), and "Who sees my information?" (only Census people, not even the CIA/FBI, by law) can be found on the Census FAQ No I do not work for the Census or the government in any way --达伟 (talk) 23:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Statements which mean their opposite
What do you call statements which mean their opposite? An example would be a sign stating "Drug dealers unwelcome": I doubt that the sign would be there if this were literally true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.68.101 (talk) 12:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * It means that to the people who put the sign up, although they are likely to be welcome by others. StuRat (talk) 12:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * In the book Nineteen Eighty-Four, the "Ministry of Peace" makes war and the "Ministry of Truth" spreads lies. The term "double-speak" has been used to describe this practice, although it can also refer to any intentionally confusing speech.  (They didn't call it that in the book, but use of terms like "double-plus ungood", to mean "evil", led to that name.) StuRat (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Whereas in a typical modern democracy wars are made by the "Ministry of Defense", which is quite different.—Emil J. 13:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be where Orwell got the idea, don'cha know. He wasn't talking about 1984, he was taking 1948 and exaggerating it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Other examples would be "There are no right or wrong answers", "I won't judge you", and "This is not an offer of prostitution".


 * If someone simply says something they know to be untrue, that would be a "lie". StuRat (talk) 13:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I was referring to statements that are always (or at least usually) lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.68.101 (talk) 13:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I dispute the assumption that "Drug Dealers Unwelcome" means they are welcome. It could well mean, "We've got a gun and we know how to use it", similar to the implication of a "No Trespassing" sign. Can you think of some other examples? Although I think "doublespeak" is probably the right answer. Another example would be the Soviet newspaper called Pravda ("truth"). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you mean an oxymoron? "a figure of speech that combines normally contradictory terms".--Shantavira|feed me 13:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a word that's self-contradictory, but he's asking about a commonly-used word or phrase or sentence that's not self-contradictory, but just plain not true. A humorous example could be the sign supposedly posted on the visiting team clubhouse at Tiger Stadium: "No Visitors Allowed". That's not intentionally false, it's just not thinking before writing. A vague example of the latter could be the Bayeux Tapestry. It's not a tapestry, it's an embroidery. And Cape Cod is not a Cape, it's a peninsula (or an island now, technically). But I don't think that's quite what he's getting at either. That's why I asked him for further exhibits. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * If it's a commonly known stock phrase which does not mean the same as the literal meaning of the component words, it's an idiom. If the meaning is directly opposite of its literal meaning, and was made so explicitly by the writer/speaker to express contempt, it's sarcasm. If there is a difference between a simply interpreted meaning and a deeper underlying meaning, it may be classed as irony (depending on how the person doing the classifying interprets irony, and how persnickety they are about the precise definition of irony). Oxymoron, as mentioned, is a two part phrase where the literal meaning of the two parts are in contradiction. And finally, if the statement is opposite from the actual facts, and was done so to deceive, it's a lie, but if it was done so unintentionally, it's an error. -- 174.31.194.126 (talk) 15:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "This is not an offer of prostitution" would, I assume, be a legal or moral loophole? "I won't judge you" is deception if it's untrue, but I'm not sure why it is assumed that a sentence like this would usually be untrue. Vimescarrot (talk) 17:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "I am committed to be with you and look after you and make you my number one priority (or whatever) till death us do part", while the ink on their pre-nuptial agreement is hardly dry. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   18:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." (old cliched example) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps OP was referring to statements (written or spoken) that people assert when in fact they intend to do the opposite. This may be intended as a form of legal protection (though presumably most are only guises or ploys to appear "legal"). For example, if you know a friend wants to burn a copy of a CD/DVD you own, you might hand it to him or her and say, "Remember it's illegal to save a copy of this on your computer," when you know full well they intend to copy it -- you're merely doing so as to have an excuse or to create the appearance of obeying the law...--71.111.229.19 (talk) 20:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That looks more like an example of CYA than a self-contradictory statement. Tonywalton Talk 00:11, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

бакалжан
In the article Plautdietsch bockelzhonn is mentioned as Russian or Ukrainian loan meaning tomato, without any reference. But the Russian and Ukrainian words for tomato are томат and помідор. So I looked for references and couldn't find any clear reference. I found a reference to a Russian word that is latinized as bakalzan. I tried to cyrillize that and found that the word бакалжан exists and is used in recipes (although it seems to be a rare word). But as I don't speak Russian I cannot find any site that clearly verifies that бакалжан means tomato. Can somebody who speaks Russian verify this? --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 19:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Baklazhan is aubergine/ eggplant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.155.176 (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Second that. Note also that in your original request the word is misspelled.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); March 26, 2010; 19:48 (UTC)
 * This Russian-language web page from the Ministry of Culture and Tourism in the Turkish Republic shows a recipe which includes among its ingredients both "Помидоры" and "Бакалжан". -- Wavelength (talk) 19:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The English article en:Eggplant is linked to the Russian article ru:Баклажан. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My Google search for both spellings together reported 20 results. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The word seems to exist and it refers to a tomato. Plautdietsch speakers seem to agree that it's from either Russian or Ukrainian descent. And that's plausible cause it's not from English descent nor Low German. So Russian/Ukrainian is the only remaining plausible source. What Slavic word else could be the source? Is there any chance that the name of the eggplant was transferred to the tomato in some Southern Ukrainian dialect? --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 00:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Such a transferral seems possible. The Italian word pomodoro ("tomato") means literally "apple of gold".  The French expression pomme de terre ("potato") means literally "apple of earth".  The Dutch word sinaasappel ("orange") means "Chinese apple".  See also Ketchup. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * But it seems more likely to me that it was the Mennonites who took the Russian word for eggplant/aubergine and applied it to a different vegetable. Баклажан refers to the eggplant in both Russian and Ukrainian; so does Polish bakłażan, Czech baklažán and Lithuanian baklažanas. Regardless of what some websites like this one, which both misspells and mistranslates the word, might say — Kpalion(talk) 01:10, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Further to the earlier answers, my Russian etymological dictionary both gives this word (Баклажан) and says that its etymology is not Slavic, but from Arabic badinjan via Turkic patlydan. I dunno about Ukrainian, but that language has a few Turkic loanwords not found in Russian, possibly under influence of the Crimean Tatars or the Ottomans, so it may well be from there originally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.180.172.243 (talk) 21:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure how relevant this is - but Chinese for "tomato" literally means "foreign eggplant". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Japanese characters
A year or so ago, I put some Japanese characters in my Wikipedia signiture, but not being particularly good at reading or writing Japanese, I really don't remember what it says. Instead of going to google translator, I'll just ask here: what does it say in my signiture and is the phrase correct grammar-wise (if it's not, what should it say) ? I believe it has to do with something about man becoming God. If it's unclear what I'm trying to say, just guess : ] thanks   ? EVAUNIT 神になった人間 19:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it says "The man who has become a god". I think it is grammatically correct (if a little archaic), but my Japanese is very rusty, so someone else will have to help out. Steewi (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It is perfectly OK and there's nothing archaic. Oda Mari (talk) 05:06, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * More accurately, it means "The person who became a god". 人間 is a gender-free noun, simply meaning 'person'. Also, 'has become' would be more like 「・・・になっている」, in the sense that the person is still a god. 「・・・になった」 is simple past tense and only refers to the act of becoming a god (which happened in the past, and may or may not have been 'fixed'). --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  07:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)