Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 11

= May 11 =

First names with other meanings
Looking for information (etymology, list, etc.) for Names(persons) that have evolved into other meanings. For example: John(restroom); Dick(appendage); Peter[ed out] (exhausted); and so on. Must be a reference out there. Thanks in advance for any help. 70.177.189.205 (talk) 01:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Jack has hundreds of other meanings. How versatile and useful jack is. :) --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 04:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Nancy boy (gay man). Sheila (traditional Australian term for a woman).  Colleen (Irish term for a woman).  Judas (traitor).  Jezebel (harlot).  --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   08:07, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Colleen isn't a name that came to be the word for a woman; it's the Irish word for girl, cailín, that came to be used as a name - but mostly by Irish immigrants to other countries, not in Ireland itself. +Angr 08:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Tom? As in tom cat.  Dismas |(talk) 08:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Billy (goat), Mavis (thrush (bird)), John Thomas (cock (male appendage)). DuncanHill (talk) 09:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Roger (message received, or in some slang it can mean to fornicate) Dismas |(talk) 10:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hence "Roger and out" to mean both penetration and withdrawal. DuncanHill (talk) 10:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of this bit from the film Airplane!
 * Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
 * Captain Oveur: Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
 * Tower voice: Tower's radio clearance, over!
 * Captain Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur. Over.
 * Astronaut (talk) 17:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Andrew (in merry andrew). Charles (see Charlie + "He's a right Charlie").  Jerry (German).  Charlotte (a dessert).  --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   20:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Robin. Jenny (wren). Reynard the fox. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 22:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Molly (fish). Dolly Varden (fish).  Everard Proudfoot (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The victoria, a type of carriage. Named after you know who, but still spelt with a lower case v for some reason. --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   18:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Biddy" is a mildly insulting term for an elderly person (at least, here in southeast England); and there is a fish called a John Dory. Hassocks 5489 (tickets please!)  12:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Origin and history of the term "Indian subcontinent"?
We now know that India and the countries around it actually constitute a subcontinent (or, at least, a distinct tectonic plate). However, the term "Indian subcontinent" predates the acceptance of plate tectonics - it was common in Kipling in the 19th century, back when plate tectonics wasn't even a crank theory, let alone accepted science. So what's the term's origin and history?

(I asked this just recently on Talk:Indian subcontinent and then noticed I'd asked the same question on the same talk page six years ago ... so I thought here might be a better place.) - David Gerard (talk) 09:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Chambers gives the meaning as "a great portion of a continent with a character of its own" - no mention of tectonics. I'll have a look in the OED for some early uses which may help. Off the top of my head, as well as India, both South Africa and Asia Minor may also be called subcontinents. DuncanHill (talk) 09:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds sensible. But "the subcontinent" means the Indian one - David Gerard (talk) 09:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, and oddly OED has nothing from Kipling, and the first use they have for India is from 1971. Earlier uses are for South Africa (mainly) and South America. There is an 1863 citation from Huxley with an Asian context, but it is unclear which landmasses are meant. I really must see if I can find it used in Kipling, as it could be worth sending in to the OED as an additional early usage. DuncanHill (talk) 09:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm now wondering if Kipling did actually use the word in his fiction! I can't find it on a quick search of his works ... apparently he used it in a letter or two - David Gerard (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I've got a feeling he used it somewhere or other - describing the traffic on the Grand Trunk Road in Kim perhaps? DuncanHill (talk) 19:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Using the Google News Archives, I see that the word "subcontinent" was originally used in the early 20th century to refer to South Africa. It was first used to refer to India in a 1910 Chicago Tribune article. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Cannot think of the name of a logical fallacy
I'm having a slow burning argument with someone over something, and he raises the point that since I am not able to create something like what we're talking about I can't comment on it. An easy example would be "If this programs so bad why don't YOU make a better one?" or "You're no artist, how can you say what is and isn't art" but I can't think of the name of this. Is it actually a fallacy or have I gone wrong somewhere? Gunrun (talk) 10:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a fallacy, specifically tu quoque: "A makes criticism P. A is also guilty of P. Therefore, P is dismissed." The personal qualities of A are irrelevant to the truth or falsity of P - David Gerard (talk) 10:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * A colloquial term could be "diversionary tactic". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Shouting "Rubbish!" may be more common in colloquial use, but it is useful to know the name of the fallacy and why it's a fallacy ;-) When I hear this particular phrasing of the fallacy, the person making it is entirely serious and thinks it's a good argument - David Gerard (talk) 12:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Note that although logcally it remains a fallacy, it is possible in general conversation that the person has a point, e.g. that the person is just being critical from envy of the criticised person's ability. However, in general "well, you do better" is utter rubbish as a refutation. In this particular case, you're a viewer of the art and quite entitled to an opinion as the viewer (IMO, YMMV) - David Gerard (talk) 12:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's rubbish as refutation, but it's not always a bad point. Back when I was an academic, I would frequently get annoyed at books and articles that had been published in which a particular theory or analysis was attacked but no better theory or analysis was proposed. Being a critic is easy; coming up with a new idea that solves the problems you've identified in someone else's work is a lot harder. Of course, that doesn't mean I had refuted the books/articles that served only to criticize and not to propose something new, but I do think it's a fair point that a book that only says "So-and-so's theory is crap" without going on to propose something better isn't really a very successful book. And if I had ever had occasion to publish a review of such a book, it's certainly a criticism I would have made. +Angr 15:20, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See also sofixit.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 21:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not a formal fallacy, but you can think of it as a valid argument with a false premise:
 * If you are not a skilled practitioner, you cannot come up with valid criticism
 * You are not a skilled practitioner
 * You cannot come up with valid criticism
 * The first premise is false because you don't need to be a cook to be able to judge whether a dish is tasty or not. --173.49.10.146 (talk) 11:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The first premise is false because you don't need to be a cook to be able to judge whether a dish is tasty or not. --173.49.10.146 (talk) 11:43, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not a fallacy, but what your counterpart seems to be getting at is that winners don't complain. Vranak (talk) 09:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Word related to fanfic
Is there a more specific word for work like fan fiction, but not concerned with telling stories so much as elucidating aspects of the original creation? Stuff like speculation on how Star Trek technology works, or trying to bend the Sherlock Holmes canon into a consistent timeline? --Hence Piano (talk) 15:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * There's "Fanon" (i.e. fan-canon). There used to be a separate Wikipedia article on it, but it got merged long ago... AnonMoos (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Like The Physics of Star Trek, right? The word doesn't appear in that article, which you'd think it would if it existed. Vimescarrot (talk) 17:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Within fandom, things that do that rather than telling a story are often called meta, treated as a noun. 86.180.48.37 (talk) 21:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Kechemeche
What does KECHEMECHE mean in the lenape language? they were the indiginous people of cape may county along with the tuckahoe.165.212.189.187 (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)kgb
 * The Lenape are a group of bands of Native American peoples, Lenape language is redirected to Unami language, Cape May County is disambiguated to Cape May County, New Jersey, and Tuckahoe is disambiguated. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In the event that we don't have any speakers of Lenape/Unami on the Reference Desk, you might want to contact these folks to see if they can help you. Marco polo (talk) 18:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Kechemeche is the name of a Native American tribe that lived in the area generally known today as the southern portion of Cape May County, New Jersey, an area bounded on one side by the Atlantic Ocean, and the Delaware River Bay on another.—Wavelength (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks all, I've been searching all over the internet for a while, so I've been to all those sites you listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 19:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You could try http://vark.com/ and http://www.google.com/Top/Reference/Ask_an_Expert/. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * A couple places to try:
 * Dunlap A.R.,Weslager C.A. (1958) "Toponymy of the Delaware Valley as Revealed by an Early Seventeenth Century Dutch Map." Bulletin of the Archeological Society of New Jersey. 15-16, pp. 3-4..
 * Weslager C.A. (1954) "Robert Evelyn's Indian Tribes and Place-Names of New Albion." Bulletin of the Archeological Society of New Jersey. 9, pp. 1-4. ."'A description of the early Delaware Indian communities in New Jersey is found in a letter written by an Englishman, Robert Evelyn, first published in 1641 in an anonymous tract and reprinted in 1648. Weslager uses the 1641 version in his transcription...Evelyn's letter name nine Indian communities in New Albion, the designation for land in New Jersey patented by Sir Edmund Plowden. Weslager places these communities on a map with suggested interpretations of the Indian names.'"
 * tho they look like they might be hard to get ahold of.&mdash;eric 19:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

It's a mystery! guess its harder than I thought. its funny because it sounds a little like "cape may" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 20:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It may not be so hard if you try one of those external links, particularly the one I suggested above, where you can connect to people who speak the Lenape language. Marco polo (talk) 20:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This will likely be a dead end also, but you could try wikt:WT:TRREQ.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 21:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are "no known speakers" (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=unm). -- Wavelength (talk) 22:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * One more lead - David Zeisberger was supposed to have written the definitive Unami dictionary, and it's available online. You might look there to see if he recorded the word. Note you should check G words as well as K, and ch might be transliterated as tch, tsch, sh, etc as well. Marco Polo's idea would probably be quicker. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 22:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

None of those worked. I emailed marcos people, havn't heard back yet. I found this site http://www.gilwell.com/lenape/m.htm, and these words Kitschii: verily, truely; and Mechen: great, big. any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.254.154 (talk) 01:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There is also keechi, supposedly meaning "how many?"; and the mech- root seems to mean "much" or "many". This could suggest something like "How many? Many!"  If that's right, it might be an exonym used by other Lenape for the group on Cape May.  It could even be a European misunderstanding.  (I can imagine some Englishman or Dutchman asking in English or Dutch "What is the name of your people?" while some Lenape shouts from behind cover "Keechi?", to which his compatriot standing in front of the ship full of white people answers "Keechi?  Mechi!"  And the satisfied Englishman or Dutchman concludes "These are the Kechemeche".)  However, you really should run this by someone with a command of the language before drawing conclusions.  Marco polo (talk) 02:06, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought I had an active imagination! that is priceless, and I mean that with appreciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 13:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

'Knockoff'
I just got an email from CNET advertising an iPod Shuffle 'knockoff' at $9.16. I have no intention whatsoever of buying it, but one thing caught my eye. Where I come from (UK), 'knockoff' means 'stolen'. I doubt that CNET would advertise cheap stolen goods and I'm guessing that someone at CNET uses this word to mean 'at a discounted price' or something. Which dialect would this be? -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * An iPod knockoff would be something that does what an iPod does, but isn't actually an iPod. DuncanHill (talk) 20:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, it just occurred to me it can also mean 'counterfeit' or 'copy'. I have just looked at the advert on their website (should have done that first), and under the picture it says "It may look like an iPod Shuffle, but it's definitely not priced like one", so I guess that's what it meant. Cheers. -- KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:53, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Typically in the US, at least, it means a cheap (and very possibly inferior) imitation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)