Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 20

= May 20 =

stymie
What is the etymology of stymie?174.3.123.220 (talk) 02:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's from a Scots word (originally spelled stimie) whose original meaning was "to obstruct a golf shot by interposition of the opponent's ball" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate). As for the origin of the Scots word, my copy of The Concise Scots Dictionary says "obscure". Deor (talk) 02:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's EO's elaboration on it: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:37, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above two sources give the etymology as "obscure"; for at least a guess at its etymology, see Century Dictionary here, which refers it to stime, itself supposed to be related to OE scima "light". -- the Great  Gavini  05:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the OED agrees in guessing as you do that the derivation is via Golf from "not able to see a styme" (a glimpse) (this word goes back to 1300, so the origin is lost, but it might be related to the Icelandic "skíma").   D b f i r s   07:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Doodah
What is the etymology of doodah?174.3.123.220 (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * EO says it's from the "Camptown Races" song which is not overly helpful. I always assumed it was just a nonsense phrase, as with its use in the song "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" from Song of the South. Here's the context of that song: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The OED agrees with EO (see Camptown Races), citing first use (outside the song and without the "h") by "H. ROSHER" in 1915.   D b f i r s   06:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are actually two common meanings of doodah, one is a tizz or a mess "all of a doodah" the other is a placeholder for a thing which is often spelt doodad. The doodad spelling is dated ten years before the doodah spelling at its first occurrence, although this is still a long time after the Camptown Races song was first written. The OED says origin unknown of doodad is uncertain but suggests it is related to dad, a chunk of something knocked off something else, with the word dad meaning such a knock too. Doofer is another, later word, meaning a thingumy and the OED suggests it may be a shortening of "this will do for now" and in a similar way I could imagine doodad is a shortening of "that thing that does that". Of course. these kinds of ummm... words have an even vaguer, misty etymology, spelling and usage than most others.  meltBanana  23:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There is an article about placeholder names. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:56, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

southern's lovers passion
What is "southern lover's passion"?174.3.123.220 (talk) 03:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Presumably the of some s from the . Judging by the context, it seems to be an allusion to some other poem that the author is comparing this poem to. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 03:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The clue is in the entire sentence from which the phrase "Southern lover's passion" is taken. The author is making a comparison between Slávy Dcera (The Daughter of Slava by Ján Kollár) and the work of Petrarch, the latter being the "Southern lover" referred to.   Presumably the author has Petrarch's passionate poems inspired by his unrequited love for "Laura" in mind.  He concludes that the two sets of work are comparable, although Kollár's Lutheran influence and Slovak surroundings were very different from the Italian Renaissance milieu in which Petrarch wrote.  Ka renjc 09:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Which language of former Yugoslavia is this?
This text, a translation from the German by Günther Schwarberg appears on a 1983 poster titled Kindermord about the Bullenhuser Damm incident. Beside the German text are translations to Polish, Italian, and what's likely a language of the former Yugoslavia (or possibly Czech/Slovak?). Is it possible to identify the latter from this passage? "Do danas se nije moglo năci traga iz rodbine ovih ubijenih deca. Ko zna nesto o njima? Ko je video njih u Birkenau ili u Neuengamme? Ko zna nešto o njihovom poreklu? " If the above is inconclusive, I can provide more text. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 07:56, 20 May 2010 (UTC)''
 * The -ih ending makes it look like Serbo-Croatian to me (and in 1983 it was still Serbo-Croatian), but the ă is very worrisome, as that letter doesn't occur in Serbo-Croatian. The only language in the vicinity that uses ă as far as I know is Romanian, but the text isn't in Romanian. Are you sure that letter is right? The gs make it unlikely to be Czech or Slovak. I suppose it could also be Slovene; the only test I know for distinguishing Slovene from Serbo-Croatian is that Slovene doesn't use the letters ć and đ, but this text is short enough that their absence doesn't prove anything. If either of those letters occurs elsewhere in the text, it pretty much has to be S-C. +Angr 08:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Based on your [outstanding] diagnostic discrimination, we may have nailed Serbo-Croatian with the presence of the word đarske. In context: "...i preneta su zajedno sa jednom lekarkom i apotekarkom iz ma đarske i sa nekoliko bolničkih sestara iz poljske..." Other diacritics in this text occur in the words: dečaka / devojčica / bolničkih / bolničara / tačno, and živi, though these aren't the distinguishing letters you've noted. Confirm? -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The "ă" doesn't occur in any Slavic language that uses the Roman alphabet (or in transliterations of the others), AFAIK, so that must be some sort of mistake (the Bulgarian ъ can be transliterated as "ă", but this is usually not the case; other than that, the letter only occurs in Romanian and Vietnamese). Also, all of those last words that you wrote are Serbo-Croatian. Rimush (talk) 09:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, so having identified the language, the question remains: are you (Deborah) sure of the ‹ă› in năci? Could the word perhaps be naći, the Serbo-Croatian word for "to find"? +Angr 11:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's indeed likely – and if so, it wouldn't be the only typographic error in this text (in which one boy's surname is entirely wrong). Aside from the word's context (above), the parallel sentence in German seems to support this: "Bis heute ist es nicht gelungen, Familienangehörige der ermordeten Kinder zu finden." -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As a native speaker of Serbo-Croatian, I can confirm the analysis. It is Serbian (rather than Croatian), but the text obviously stems from a non-native speaker -- there are few grammatical errors and few awkward constructions. Another typographical error is mentioned "đarske", which is actually "Mađarske" -- Hungary. But I gather that you know the meaning already, only that the language was unknown. 142.52.88.205 (talk) 18:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * 142.52 is right. It is basically Serbian, but with some awkward spots - first off, Serbian would probably be written in Cyrillic (as opposed to Croatian, which uses latinic). Other than that, Serbian transcribes foreign names according to the rule write it as you say it, so "Neuengamme" would probably be written like "Nojengame" in actual honest-to-God Serbian. Other than that, it's Serbian alright. If I'm not mistaken, you already know the meaning or do you need a translation as well? TomorrowTime (talk) 08:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Is "latinic" a word? I've always heard it called "the Latin (or Roman) alphabet". --Tango (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. False friend. It did seem weird somehow. Oh well :) TomorrowTime (talk) 04:53, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Schindler's Liſt
What is “Schindler's Liſt”? --84.61.146.104 (talk) 08:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's Schindler's List using a long s in place of the usual ‹s›. +Angr 08:21, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The long s looks like an “f”. --84.61.146.104 (talk) 08:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Even more so when printed via printing press, as opposed to hand-written. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * And my first thought was an elevator manufactured by the Schindler Group (and a pun on Schindler's List). Is there any context I am missing? ---Sluzzelin talk  08:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In Stan Freberg's comedy album History of the U.S. Part I, he has Ben Frankling reading the draft of the Declaration of Independence, and saying incredulously, "'When in the courſe of human eventſ'? All your esses look like effs there!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it appears I am not missing context but a new pair of glasses. I actually read "Liſt" as "Lift", and thought Angr was giving a possible explanation which seemed likely but not necessarily the only one, without further context. My suggestion should be ignored. ---Sluzzelin talk  09:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I love those lifts. I never get in one without thinking of Schindler's Lift. Thank you British English. FreeMorpheme (talk) 12:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

(Slightly off-topic) Wow, having read the article long s, I never knew before the integral operator was actually an elongated long s. I just thought it was a cool-looking abstract symbol. It kind of makes sense though, seeing as the sum operator is a magnified capital sigma, the product operator is a magnified capital pi, the "for all of these" predicate is an upside-down A, and the "for at least one of these" predicate is an upside-down E. J I P  | Talk 18:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * An upside down E is just an E. The "there exists" symbol is a back-to-front E. --Tango (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about rotating 180 degrees instead of flipping vertically. That's how I imagine being upside down. I don't know what is the correct meaning of the term. J I P  | Talk 20:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To me also, "upside-down" of a letter means rotated 180%. Back when printing was done with little pieces of metal, turning one piece by 180% was the only way to achieve an upside-down letter. +Angr 21:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In hindsight, I guess both are valid uses of the phrase "upside down". In both cases, the top is at the bottom, which is what the phrase means. --Tango (talk) 23:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm curious to know where someone saw that f-like "ess" in any reference to Schindler's List, given that long-s in printed English disappeared a long time ago. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed... since in german the name appears to be http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schindlers_Liste .77.86.115.45 (talk) 21:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Chinese characters, weird translation
What is a more precise translation of 相無宗教 other than "mutual irreligion"? I have a book on the Chinese Jews and this is on the front cover, along with Buddhist Lotus drawings. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 11:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I often find that translating each individual chinese character can help with translation. So 相 can mean "mutually", 無 = "no", 宗 can mean "sect" or "school", 教 = "teaching" or "religion".  So, could it be "no mutual religion", or even "no mutual belief"? From my Euro-centric view Judaism and Buddhism have little in common.  Astronaut (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "no mutual religion" is the same as "mutual irreligion". I've never heard this phrase before. I guess it's some type of Buddhist phrase for the impermanence of religion.


 * There is actually a very large correlation between Judaism and Confucianism. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Confucianism and Buddhism are totally different, Ghostexorcist. Buddhism started in India and Confucianism started in China. One could argue that Confucianism is not a religion but a philosophy, whereas Buddhism is almost always considered a religion. 76.229.239.223 (talk) 23:49, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Please forgive my bluntness anonymous editor, but that info fits into the "no shit" category. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * He might be talking about the advice that Confucius gave, which may be similar to advice in other ancient writings. What little I've seen of it, it sounds surpisingly modern, which just goes to show that human nature has not really changed much in the last few thousand years. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You are correct Bugs. Scholars have written several books on the similarities between the two religions. An example of this are the aforementioned Chinese Jews. Their particular brand of Judaism was greatly influenced by Confucianism (with a dash of Taoism). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You can't tell someone's religion by looking at their face? William Avery (talk) 16:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * no. DOR (HK) (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * From Leo Rosten's The Joys of Yiddish, Pope John XXIII was visiting with some Israeli leaders, and the photo's caption read, "The Pope is the one wearing the yarmulke." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Deliverables
Is deliverables (plural) a word? Gmail's spell check keeps telling me that it isn't. I asked someone, and they said that deliverable (singular) is a collective noun. Does this make a difference? --The Dark Side (talk) 18:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes it's a real word http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/deliverables 77.86.115.45 (talk) 18:37, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A deliverable is a good or service to be delivered. Deliverables are goods or services to be delivered. This term is in common use in business settings in the United States. Marco polo (talk) 20:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A term frequently used in Information Systems. A deliverable can be a document, a programming module, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur. And also in U.S. Defense acquisition. Kingsfold (talk) 12:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Palais de Tokyo
Where does this French art museum's name come from? It doesn't have Asian art and it wasn't founded by an Asian, so the name seems kind of strange. --70.129.186.243 (talk) 21:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.palaisdetokyo.com/fo3/low/programme/index.php?page=../infospratiques/historique.html named after the Quai de Tokyo "Pier tokyo" - now all is needed is an explanation for that...77.86.115.45 (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather than "Pier Tokyo", quai is better translated as "quay". However, according to fr:Avenue de New-York (the French language article about the same street), the street was once known as "quai Debilly" but in 1918 was renamed "avenue de Tokio" in honour of the capital of Japan, an ally of France during World War I.  Unsurprisingly, after World War II, the street was again renamed, this time in honour of the largest city in the United States, the country which had such a big hand in liberating France.  Astronaut (talk) 23:19, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Word for song transition
Is there a specific name for when a song changes in tempo, tone and rhythm? Here is an example of what I mean, at time 2:12 link 82.44.55.254 (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * possibly a Segue or possibly not.77.86.115.45 (talk) 21:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This may not be the right term, but in poetry it's called a volta. Brammers (talk) 22:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Origin of a Phrase.
I was wondering what the orgin of the phrase "Home James" is. 75.234.0.19 (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The full expression is normally "Home James, and don't spare the horses". Allegedly, this was said by Queen Victoria to her driver James Darling, not wanting to call him by his surname as was customary she used his first name. It was definitely used in a song in the 1930s by Fred Hillebrand. Mikenorton (talk) 22:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * That sort of thing didn't bother Bob Menzies. One of the Chairmen of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation was Sir James Darling, and whenever Menzies wrote to him, he started out with "My dear Darling" (his preferred salutation for men being "My dear "). --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   23:51, 20 May 2010 (UTC)