Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 24

= May 24 =

lap for laptop
Can somebody tell me about the use of the word lap to mean a laptop computer? I see that this expression is widespread among certain sections in my place. However, I don't see this mentioned in Wiktionary. --117.204.80.219 (talk) 00:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=laptop
 * Lap : current meaning "upper legs of seated person" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lap
 * Usage "I was sitting down drinking coffee, but I nodded off, spilling hot coffee on my lap, waking me up" 87.102.18.191 (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Desktop computer - goes on a desk
 * Laptop computer - goes on your lap.87.102.18.191 (talk) 00:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It can go on your lap, e.g. at an airport or in a vehicle. But typically it's set upon a tabletop or desktop if one is available, as they are a little awkward and can get fairly warm. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The term "notebook", as in electronic notebook, is also used - more of a sales hype term than anything. "Laptop" is descriptive. "Lap" has an interesting origin and diverse evolution. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not really hype: as I understand it, they changed the name to "notebook" to avoid being sued when someone put their laptop on their lap and got burnt. If they are marketing them as laptops, they can hardly say people were misusing it by putting it on their lap, so they had the change the name. --Tango (talk) 00:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Easier to change the term than to fix the problem, eh? American ingenuity! But everyone I know calls it a "laptop". Old habits (and laps) die hard. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A big honkin' mainframe could maybe be called a "floortop". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, they would claim they were trying to fix the problem by changing the behaviour of users, which probably is the best solution. Lots of work has been done to reduce the heat produced by laptops (although mostly because it is extremely strongly correlated with the power used and therefore the battery life), but there is a limit to how good they can get. --Tango (talk) 01:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I think what the OP was asking was about using "lap" to refer to one's computer, as in "my lap got a virus". Personally, I have never heard that. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * After re-reading, I think you are right. That is apparently what the OP means. I also haven't come across that particular abbreviation. The use of unusual abbreviations within a small group of people is very common, though. --Tango (talk) 01:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, duh, you're right. He obviously knows what a laptop is and what a lap is. This tendency to shorten things is a normal thing in English. We refer to a telephone as a "phone", even though "phone" by itself is technically an ambiguous usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am the OP and and I am surprised that my meaning was lost on all these posters who got carried away by etymological and other innuendos of lap :-)). So, nobody here has encountered this particular usage in their languages?--117.204.80.219 (talk) 01:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think an English speaker would ever call a computer a "lap". Paul Davidson (talk) 02:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have full sympathy with you, OP. It would have been very hard to misinterpret your very clear question "Can somebody tell me about the use of the word lap to mean a laptop computer?", yet if you needed any proof that we here at WP often do the impossible, here it is.  :)  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not able to find anything on Google, but I did find this one item that reminds us that the early term for a PC was a "microcomputer". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's just a continuation of the laptop -> lappy shortening? Nanonic (talk) 07:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought my wife was the only one that called them "lappys"! Dismas |(talk) 08:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Amazing you hold down a job, yet need to contact strangers on the internet to have a simple colloquial abbreviation explained to you :) 87.102.85.123 (talk) 11:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That was really unnecessary, Friend 87, smiley or no. The OP is very aware that "lap" is sometimes used as an abbreviation for "laptop".  That's not the issue.  What he/she wants is more information about this abbreviation, since it hasn't yet made it into the hallowed halls of Wiktionary.  It's obvious from the responses so far that very few others have come across it either, so it's not exactly widespread.  The OP wants to know how long it's been around, what pockets of the linguosphere it's used in, and similar questions.  They want some references, not just guesses.  Why is this so hard to understand?  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the Geolocate, he's in India, so it could be an "Indian English" thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yet again I've insulted someone Indian due to differences in language (I hate the internet). Sorry. It's just an abbreviation though - I can't imagine there being a lot more to be said.87.102.85.123 (talk) 13:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, imagine again. They have to start somewhere. Someone had to be the first to use them.  They're appropriate in some contexts but not others, and this differs from case to case.  They're used in some countries but not others, or some parts of a country but not others, and so on. There's lots of information that can be recorded about any particular abbreviation.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Finns use "läppäri" as a shorthand term for "laptop". This comes directly from the English word "laptop", without any translation. Finnish for "lap" is "syli". I don't think most Finns who use the term "läppäri" are even aware that the word "lap" means your lap, they're using the English word as an opaque identifier to distinguish laptops from desktops. J I P | Talk 19:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that lap for laptop is an abbreviation; what 117.204.80.219 seems to be describing is a clipped form. Deor (talk) 22:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The OP again. As Baseball_Bugs guesses I am from India. I have heard this expression from a couple of people (a few using it as if to convey that he/she is an "insider") and found it used in a popular novel written in an Indian local language. Somehow, I found this truncated form a bit poor in taste (I don't know why) and wanted to confirm it is part of some slang. I have yet to confirm if the IT people in my part of the world use this expression. It could be a probable and influential source but I doubt if it is. --117.204.85.48 (talk) 07:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Evocation v. Provocation
What is the difference between evocation and provocation?  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 14:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The two have very different definitions: evocation and provocation. Marco polo (talk) 15:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The distinction between evocation and invocation is more problematic in some contexts. Although the linked definitions do not make this clear, evoking something may imply "calling it up" externally to oneself, while invoking it may imply "calling it up" within oneself.87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the definitions are pretty similar in my dictionary. (Well, that's what wmf is for.) Also, I'm just curious, but why were you using an external link to link to Wiktionary? I mean, why didn't you link to evocation instead? Is there a purpose for linking like that? Thanks again,  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 13:53, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Polyglot toponyms
I was fascinated by articles about localities with names in different languages. Some of them have a lot of official-local names, for example: German: Zürich, French: Zurich, Italian: Zurigo, Romansh: Turitg; French: Fauvillers, German: Feitweiler, Luxembourgish: Fäteler, Walloon: Faiviè; French: Messancy, German: Metzig, Luxembourgish: Miezeg, Walloon: Messanceye; French: Martelange, German: Martelingen, Luxembourgish: Maartel, Walloon: Måtlindje; Italian: Macugnaga, Walser German: Z'Makana, Piedmontese: Macugnaga, Occitan: Mazzuccagna; Italian: Malborghetto Valbruna, Friulian: Malborghet-Valbrune, Slovene: Naborjet-Ovčja, German: Malborgeth-Wolfsbach. I was wondering, do you know any example of other localities with even more local names? By local names I mean I would prefer names in languages actually spoken by autochthonous people (I know that Zurich is not a very good example because its localized names exist only because of its importance, being it almost totally German-speaking). Oh, I have seen Names of European cities in different languages, but as you have probably understood, I'm not searching for exonims. --151.51.2.134 (talk) 17:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how many of these names are used now, but see the opening sentence of "Bratislava", and its section "Names".&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 17:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * To this day, the village of Bivio is trilingual. It is called Bivio in Italian, Beiva in Rumantsch (close to Surmiran, but Bivio has its own distinct dialect), and formerly Stalla or, apparently, even "Stallen" in German (I don't know anyone who calls it Stalla or Stallen these days, but I don't live there or near there either). I think our article might have it wrong, but I will need to check for references some other time. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of the autonomous regions/counties of China have cities with names in both Mandarin and the local language. For example, in Xinjiang many cities have names in both Mandarin and Uyghur (for instance, Qumul/Hami; Ghulja/Yining). The same goes for places like Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Guangxi, etc. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * For bilingual examples, there are of course plenty in Switzerland as well. Ilanz/Glion for a Rumantsch/German example. Bosco Gurin/Guryn for an Italian/Walserdeutsch example (in Ticinese-Lombard it would even be Bosch Gürin, so I guess it could be considered trilingual). The largest Swiss examples are probably Franco-German: Fribourg/Freiburg or Biel/Bienne (not to be confused with Bielle :). ---Sluzzelin  talk  20:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It just occurred to me, that both Biel and Fribourg could be considered trilingual, due to the annoying diglossia in German-speaking Switzerland (annoying to non-native speaking immigrants, anyway). So we now have Fribourg/Freiburg/Fryburg and Biel/Bienne/Biu. ---Sluzzelin talk  21:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Vienna used to be the capital of a multilingual empire, and it once had a multilingual population. The city is now overwhelmingly German-speaking, but there are remnants of communities from other parts of Austria-Hungary, alongside more recent immigrants from Turkey, Bosnia, and elsewhere.  Vienna's names in the many languages of its former empire include Wien, Videň, Viedeň, Wiedeń, Відень, Viena, Beč, Беч, Bécs, Dunaj, and Vienna.  Marco polo (talk) 20:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Dunaj is the Czech, Slovak and Polish name of the Danube River, not the name of the city of Vienna. --Магьосник (talk) 11:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Finland has Finnish and Swedish names for some (perhaps many) places: Helsinki/Helsingfors; Turku/Åbo; Tampere/Tammerfors. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Most places in Wales have English and Welsh names (or just a Welsh name, or occasionally just an English name) e.g. Cardiff/Caerdydd, Swansea/Abertawe, Newport/Casnewydd, Holyhead/Caergybi, Haverfordwest/Hwlffordd, Llandovery/Llanymddyfri, Wrexham/Wrecsam (though that's just spelling an English name using Welsh orthography). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See Welsh placenames for more detail. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much all place names in Ireland exist in both Irish and English forms, although the English form is usually just an anglicized spelling of the Irish name. Some examples where the names are really different are Dublin (Baile Átha Cliath), Wicklow (Cill Mhantáin), Wexford (Loch Garman), and Waterford (Port Láirge). However, these might not qualify as truly bilingual places, since they're all overwhelmingly English-speaking by now. +Angr 21:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Many notable places in the Balkans are known with different names, sometimes with different etymologies, in the languages of the various peoples that have dealt with them historically.
 * Istanbul: Turkish: İstanbul (note the dotted capital İ); Greek: Κωνσταντινούπολη, Kōnstantinoúpolē.
 * Alexandroupoli: Greek: Αλεξανδρούπολη, Alexandroúpolē; Turkish: Dedeağaç.
 * Thessaloniki: Greek: Θεσσαλονίκη, Thessaloníkē; Bulgarian: Солун, Solun; Turkish: Selanik.
 * Edirne: Turkish: Edirne; Greek: Αδριανούπολη, Adrianoúpolē, Bulgarian: Одрин, Odrin.
 * Durrës: Albanian: Durrës; Greek: Δυρράχιο, Dyrráchio; Italian: Durazzo; Turkish: Dıraç; Serbian: Драч, Drač, Bulgarian: usually Дуръс, Durăs, but occasionally Драч, Drach.
 * Skopje: Macedonian: Скопје, Skopje; Albanian: Shkupi; Serbian: Скопље, Skoplje, Turkish: Üsküp.
 * Constanţa: Romanian: Constanţa; Bulgarian: usually Констанца, Konstantsa, but occasionally Кюстенджа, Kyustendzha; Turkish: Köstence.
 * Giurgiu: Romanian: Giurgiu; Bulgarian: Гюргево, Gyurgevo; Turkish: Yergöğü.
 * --Магьосник (talk) 01:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * New South Wales, Australia has made indigenous place names official dual names alongside the modern English names of areas. Steewi (talk) 02:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Many places in Schleswig have names in all five local languages German, Danish, North Frisian, Low Saxon, and South Jutlandic. But I cannot provide any example with names in all five different languages cause Low Saxon, North Frisian and Southern Jutish are no standard languages and no official listings of the place names exist. --:Slomox:: &gt;&lt; 20:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Arts and letters
Regarding the phrase "arts and letters" ... what exactly does this mean (both literally and figuratively)? Also, what is its etymology? Thank you! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 21:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC))
 * It means just what the page you linked says: "the fine arts, performing arts, and literary arts". 'Letters' refers to literature, 'arts' refers to performance and art art (painting, sculpture, etc.). r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The usual name for "art art" is visual art. +Angr 21:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's the word I was grasping for! r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am aware of what the link says, as I included the link in my question. So, let me be more direct.  Why is the broad concept of literature referred to as "letters"?  Does this refer to letters as in: (a) the 26 letters of the alphabet; or (b) the type of letters that you would write to a friend and send via mail?  (Neither seems particularly applicable.)  I was asking: where did the phrase originate?  And what do letters have to do with anything?  Thanks.   (64.252.65.146 (talk) 00:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC))
 * "Letters" is a form of synechdoche for referring to writing. There is more information on etymology, when it was first attested, etc., in the second entry here. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 00:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Basically, the concept is referred to as "letters" because in Latin litterae (plural of littera, "letter [of the alphabet]") was used to denote the concept. Why doesn't it seem particulary applicable? It's no more odd than the synonymous literature, which derives from the same root. Deor (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. It seemed odd or inapplicable because each individual letter of the alphabet seems, in perspective, rather benign and trivial when referring to the concept of literary works (e.g., great works of literature) as a whole.  Somewhat akin to, say, referring to a great masterpiece of art (e.g., the Mona Lisa) as "some brush strokes" or "a collection of paint chips".  The small component units seem rather trivial, whereas the aggregate cumulative effect (of them) is what makes the works stand out. Thanks.   (64.252.65.146 (talk) 01:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC))
 * Yes, that's why it's synecdoche. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed!  (64.252.65.146 (talk) 01:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

Thanks to all. Much appreciated! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC))

Icelandic relative clauses
A friend of mine showed me the following Icelandic sentences, with some simple interlinear glosses:

I noticed that the first has a head-initial relative clause (the RC follows the noun it's describing, and the complementizer is at the beginning, like English), and the second has a head-final one (like Japanese, Turkish, Chinese...). Can anyone tell why this is? I have heard Icelandic word order is relatively flexible, so is there some kind of focus difference or something behind this difference? And is it possible to flip either of these examples around? r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 22:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you sure the second one is a relative clause? It looks like a sentence to me. --ColinFine (talk) 23:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I dunno, I don't know anything about Icelandic. I asked for a relative clause ("the woman whose husband I saw"), but who knows what I actually got ;) r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 23:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest that it would depend on what case konu is in. It is apparently feminine indefinite genitive, dative or accusative. I should like to see this relative clause as part of a whole sentence before I can really tell anything about it. My Icelandic syntax is very small. Steewi (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Google translates the sentence "I saw this woman's husband". Although my knowledge of Icelandic is rudimentary, this is the translation I expected, because þessarar and konu are both in the genitive case.  According to Google, "the woman whose husband I saw" would be "konan sem maðurinn sá ég". Marco polo (talk) 18:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

chinese translation
which is a better if at all translation

兒子不純的 战士上帝 or 儿子的污辱 战士的神? I am trying to translate my name Troy McCormick, troy means soldier of god, mccormick means son of defilement, so i know in chinese it should be son of defilement, soldier of god anyways, is either correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hemanetwork (talk • contribs) 23:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Chinese names for foreigners aren't made with literal translation like that, they're usually phonetic transliterations (for instance, Barack Obama is 巴拉克·欧巴马: balake oubama), so yours might be something like, I dunno, 土若·马克尔马克 (turuo make'ermake). For a more Chinese-like name, like what students in introductory Chinese classes get, you would most likely get a surname that shares a sound with your surname (probably 马, ma) and then a one- or two-character given name that either sounds like your real given name, or uses some characters that are just common for names.
 * (Just think of it this way: your English name doesn't really mean "soldier of god, son of defilement" either. Maybe etymologically that's what those words originally meant, but it's not how you introduce yourself to people. If you were in a French class and getting a French name, your name wouldn't be Fils de Dieu or something like that, it would be something name-y.)
 * And, for what it's worth, your literal translations are backwards (they look like they're from Google Translate). The first says "the son is impure; soldier god", and the second says "defilement of the son, god of the soldier". <b class="IPA">r ʨ anaɢ</b> (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it odd that your first translation is in Traditional Chinese whereas your second is in Simplified Chinese. I'm assuming you don't speak (much) Chinese seeing as you have your words the wrong way round the "的" (the thing being described generally comes after the 的). I agree with Rjanag above that foreign names are transliterated phonetically, however I probably would not transliterate Troy to "土若", as 土 means "dirt" (in the earthy sense); probably something like 特罗(吚). Intelligent  sium  23:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Intelligentsium, 特罗 sounds better. Although, for what it's worth, if you're looking for a Chinese name you're probably better off using the second kind I described, rather than a full phonetic transliteration...that longer kind of name is more often used for famous people (like Barack Obama and actors). <b class="IPA">r ʨ anaɢ</b> (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Troy means soldier, is there a name that is similar in meaning? McCormick means son of cormac, cormac means defilement or impure or raven, is there a name similar to that? and nevertheless how would i say it if i wanted to, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hemanetwork (talk • contribs) 00:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC) If you wanted a Chinese-like first name that means something like 'soldier' a name like 英军 Ying1jun1 might be appropriate. Both are relatively common characters used in boys' names. Ying 英 means 'hero' (and phonetically, English), jun 军 means 'army' or 'soldier'. Combined with a phonetic surname like 马, you would get 马英军 Ma Yingjun. There isn't really a surname that has a meaning like defilement or raven. Have a look at List of Chinese surnames for some other possibilities. You should also check with a native speaker to make sure that your chosen name doesn't have any strange homophones. Yingjun sounds like 英俊 ying1jun4, which means 'handsome' (they differ only in tone), so that's not really a bad name. Steewi (talk) 02:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * First, it's not true that Troy means soldier of God, nor that McCormick means son of defilement. Those etymologies are incorrect, except that Mac/Mc does mean "son of" in Gaelic. Most of name-book authors, and most name sources on the internet, just copy lists out of previous sources, with all the same errors. If you are actually interested in the original meaning of your name, consult an academic, researched name book.


 * Anyway, to most of us, the modern connotation of a name is more important than its original etymology. The names Gertrude and Bertha have wonderful meanings, but no one names a child that these days. Most of us don't need to worry about the meaning of a name (and most people have theirs wrong from some baby-name book that usually says it means some variant of "glorious warrior" or "precious jewel").


 * The normal way a Western name is turned into a Chinese name is for either a Chinese person (preferably well-educated) or the Western individual to choose a Chinese name that sounds like the Western name, and also has a favorable meaning. There are standard translations of a lot of Western names-- for example, John is often translated as Yue-han and David as Da-wei. But in China every person's name is individual, so you are free to choose any characters you wish.


 * Therefore to translate your surname, McCormick, into a Chinese surname, you would normally choose a Chinese surname that starts with M, like Ma, Mao, Mei, Meng. (In China, there are few surnames-- so few that the Han Chinese population was nicknamed "Old Hundred Names" because almost everyone has one of those hundred names. Including thousands of rare ones, there are still only a few thousand surnames in total among the billion-plus Han Chinese.) Or you could choose a surname that began with the K sound of Cormick. Alternatively, you could choose to transliterate your name and have a multisyllable name that won't sound Chinese, but will be written in Chinese characters. This is what Chinese newspapers do with the names of famous Westerners, few of whom have a "Chinese" name. For example, George W. Bush is transliterated as "乔治·沃克·布什," pronounced Qiao-zhi Wo-ke Bu-shi (乔治/Qiao-zhi is a standard version of "George") on Chinese Wikipedia.


 * Probably the most common M surname is 馬 Ma, which means "horse"; it is often found in the Muslim population of Northwest China. The surname Mai 麥 (traditional)/麦 (simplified), meaning "grain," is pronounced Mok in Cantonese, so you could choose it for that reason.


 * To translate your name Troy, you are completely free to choose any one- or two-characters from a Chinese dictionary. It's normal to choose one or two characters with favorable meanings. There are lots of resources on the internet about how to choose your Chinese name. Here's one decent one, for example: http://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html Before you definitively make up your mind, be sure to ask an opinion from a native speaker. Even a name with a good meaning could sound too much like another expression. If your Chinese speaker bursts out laughing, you need a different name. Evangeline (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The common translation of "Troy" is "特洛伊". And "McCormick" might be translated into "麥科米克". Chinese people are actually not so care of the meaning of a single character, they just mind the whole meaning of the name and avoid the bad euphonies. luuva (talk) 11:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)