Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 25

= May 25 =

Sophocracy in Chinese, Pali and Sanskrit
I need the translation of the word 'sophocracy' into Chinese, Pali and Sanskrit, but I cannot find one. Can anyone help me here?

Thank you in advance, Tomispev (talk) 07:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I imagine the reason you can't find it is because it's a very uncommon word even in English (it doesn't appear to exist in most dictionaries other than Wiktionary). As for Chinese, I would guess you could translate it as 哲学政治 (哲学 is philosophy, 政治 means government but is also the "-ocracy" in words like "theocracy"). rʨ anaɢ (talk) 01:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think sophocracy means more "rule of the wise" rather than "rule of philosophers". Perhaps the Confucian concept of the "君子", or superior individual, would apply. Paul Davidson (talk) 05:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well sophocracy derives from sophos+cracy, sophos meaning sage, not philosopher. I just don't know if to use the word 聖 or 哲 + 政治. Tomispev (talk) 07:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "智才治國"? See and . Translation are  and . Or 賢者政治 or 賢者政体? Oda Mari (talk) 08:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * How about 聖哲统治? Tomispev (talk) 09:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

First priority
The Queen spoke about this in her speech today. It sounds tautological to me. And what comes after a priority? Kittybrewster &#9742;  12:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I used to have a boss who, if she wanted me to do something before and to the exclusion of everything else, would tell me "prioritise this...". However, my understanding of the verb "to prioritise" was "to put things in order of importance". If I'd have done what I understood her instructions to mean, I would have ranked it along with my other tasks in order of importance. Obviously I had to act according to what she meant, not what I thought she said. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any tautology here. One can have a first priority and then a second priority and so on.--Shantavira|feed me 12:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If it is second, it doesn't sound like a priority. Kittybrewster &#9742;  12:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have several things to do, you do them in order of their priority. The most important thing is the first priority or top priority. Next is the second priority, next is the third priority, and so on. I don't think a priority is a thing one can have only one of at a time. +Angr 13:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have a list of 50 things you need to do, and put them in order of priority, all of them except the last will be priorities, because all of them except the last come before at least 1 other thing. But the last one, the 50th, that's no kind of priority at all.  Therefore it doesn't belong on the list.  So take it off.  Now the 49th thing is the last thing on the list, and it, by the same reasoning, is no kind of priority, so take it off.  Continue doing this till only the first thing is left.  Does this mean that there was only ever one priority, as Kitty seems to be implying?  Maybe.  But having a list of things in the order of importance one assigns to them is still a very useful and rational tool.  Does it really matter what we call this order, as long as it's generally comprehensible, which "priority" is?  --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   13:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe. Inductive reasoning is valid only if the premises are true, although I suppose this gem of logic was tongue-in-cheek. "Last priority" is a term that is frequently used (gets a lot of ghits, random example ) --NorwegianBluetalk 22:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm with Shantavira and Angr here. While I personally have never said or heard "first priority", I have heard "top priority" a lot, and it sounds perfectly fine to say "X should be your top priority; Y is the next priority" or something like that. As for your hypothetical situation about 50 things...well, I think you can only really label a few things as priorities (unless you're being witty). It's a bit fuzzy, but language doesn't always work logically anyway. rʨ anaɢ (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Except that you rarely have such a well ordered, exhaustive list. Usually you'll have, say, 50 things you want to do, but only 10 of them will be "priorities" (the rest of them will be done when you get around to it, or en passant of other goals). Of the ten you can order them first, second, third, etc. However, you can't simply drop the tenth from the list, as that would imply it on the same level as the other 40 things-you-want-to-do-but-aren't-going-to-address-right-now, which it's not. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 17:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Heh heh heh. But actually they are all priorities, and the last one is the lowest priority. It might for instance be a thread (computer science). 213.122.36.77 (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * TammyMoet: prioritize.&mdash;msh210 &#x2120; 18:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously, if the Queen says it, then it is de facto, The Queen's English ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh heh. Except, in this case, although she spoke in terms of "my government will ...", she or her staff did not write the speech.  It was written by the government for her to read.  At the State Opening of Parliament, it's important that the monarch be seen to be reading words written by others, so that they cannot be interpreted as her personal ideas now being implemented. The speech could hypothetically have a sentence like "Yeah - but no, but yeah, but no but ...", and the Queen would have no choice but to sit there in all her jewels and finery, doing her best Vicky Pollard imitation.  Bizarre?  Sure, but actually less improbable than the Queen coming up with her own words on such an occasion.  --  Jack of Oz   ... speak! ...   21:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Weird seating arrangement
I was looking at the photo in the article cited immediately above (appearing at right) -- why is there a circular couch for people to sit on in the middle of the room? Isn't it awkward for whomever sits on it to face all the different directions?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 12:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See woolsack. Kittybrewster &#9742;  12:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That article only discusses the woolsack at Westminster. The Canadian one is mentioned in this 1949 Ottawa Citizen article, as established by the Fathers of the Confederation, "made large like a miniature traffic circle with a pillar in the centre" and stuffed with Canadian wool. Your illustration is in Life magazine, which identifies the occupants as the supreme court justices.  Gwinva (talk) 00:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it still there? Would someone add it to the "woolsack" page? Alansplodge (talk) 20:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Perp smart/street smart
In Jeffery Deaver's 'The Devil's Teardrop', I've found the sentence as follows:

He's perp smart, not street smart.

What does it mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Analphil (talk • contribs) 12:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Does perp help?--Shantavira|feed me 12:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it might help to know more of the context. I have heard of "street smart." I think it is generally opposed to the type of "smart" that an educated person is, education in this case being "school-educated." I think that "street smart" does not necessarily imply engaged in any kind of illegal activity, though it is not impossible that the term could be used in that way. "Street smart" implies common sense in dealings of a fairly basic level. The term "perp smart" is entirely new to me. A "perp" is short for a "perpetrator," I think. Bus stop (talk) 12:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your answer. In the sentence above, 'he' is the hero of the novel who is an ex-federal agent and good document examiner. So it seems to me that it is not the matter of being legal/illegal. It is kind of compliment, I think. Analphil (talk) 13:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Then it probably means that although he isn't street smart (streetwise), he's good at thinking like criminals ( perp etrators) and thus finding them. +Angr 13:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

English word search
My son asked me whether there were any words with three e's in a row. It seems likely but I couldn't think of any offhand. I remember that there was a database you could search for such things but I can't remember how. Anyone know what I am thinking of? 75.41.110.200 (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * At Merriam-Webster.com you can do a star-search for *eee* and it will return all words containing that sequence. (All the hits, however, are two-word phrases with or without a hyphen, such as free enterprise and bee-eater, except "licenseee" which I take to be a typo.) +Angr 13:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * From English words with uncommon properties: Other candidates are the archaic agreeeth (third person singular present tense of the verb to agree), … and tweeer (comparative adjective of the qualifier twee meaning infantilely kitsch), though comparison to freer and seer argues against the third e. The use of tree as a transitive verb meaning "to drive up a tree" makes the dog the tree-er and the cat the tree-ee.
 * Also, see EEE at Triple Letters here. --  Jack of Oz  <font face="Papyrus"> ... speak! ...   13:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Deee-Lite. Eeebuntu.  Freeez.  Leee John.  All "words", but maybe not the sort you had in mind.  The above mention of a dog and a tree suggests it may also be a weeer or peeer.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * But then, wouldn't a person with 6th sense be called a *seeer, as opposed to 'seer'? -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Aha. I'd been wondering what members of the House of Lords spend all their time doing.  Must be all the bars they have there.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I would insert a hyphen in all of the suggestions, but there is a trend towards omitting all hyphens, so, if they are not in the dictionary now, they might be in the future.   D b f i r s   02:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answers. I had forgotten to come back and check up on this. So Eee is rarer than I expected. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 19:55, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Place in Madagascar
I'm looking for the name of a place in Madagascar, which is written アンバトビィニッケル in Japanese. For those of you not able to read Japanese, that would be 'Anbatobiinikkeru' in romaji. Any ideas? -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Doesn't matter - found it. Should be Ambatovy + nickel, two separate words. Never mind. :) -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh. At the translation company where I used to work, part of my job was deciphering non-Japanese placenames that had been written in katakana and putting them back into the Latin alphabet. One that sticks in my mind was Misshombījo, California. I had the world atlas out and was poring over the map of California for a long time before I realized it was Mission Viejo, as transliterated by someone who didn't know how it was pronounced. +Angr 14:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha! Yes, that sort of thing happens from time to time. Luckily we have the internet to save us time these days, but I can imagine it being sheer hell years ago trying to find/guess the 'original' names of people and places which had been transliterated into Japanese. Anyway, cheers. -- <font face="Freestyle Script" color="blue">KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Holy Trinity in German, Dutch, and Portuguese
Holy Trinity Catholic Church dominates the skyline of Coldwater, Ohio, so I've added my new photo of it to our article on that village, as well as to the German, Dutch, and Portuguese articles on the village. Could someone confirm or correct my translations of "Holy Trinity Church"? I've rendered the captions as Die Kirche Heilige Dreifaltigkeit in Coldwater, Heilige Drie-eenheidkerk in Coldwater, and Igreja de Santíssima Trindade respectively. Nyttend (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, I asked for similar help with a church in Minster, Ohio some months ago; I didn't include "Coldwater" in the Portuguese caption because someone at pt:wp advised me that they don't generally include the name of the community in this context. Nyttend (talk) 17:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally think that, like many proper names, the name should not be translated. Our article for the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris isn't titled Our Lady of Paris, after all. Note that the text of the German article calls it "Holy Trinity Church". Deor (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting; I'd failed to notice "Holy Trinity Church" in the text. But isn't Notre Dame an exception?  We don't normally talk about "Sodor Vasilija Blazhennogo" in Moscow, for example.  Nyttend (talk) 18:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that in German and Dutch, English terms are so common that it might seem a bit odd to translate the name of a church in a small American town. However, the correct German form would be "Die heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche in Coldwater".  Note that heilige isn't capitalized.  Some research suggests that the correct Dutch form would be "De Heilige Drievuldigheidskerk in Coldwater".  For Portuguese, it looks like "Igreja da Santíssima Trindade" is correct.  Note that it is da, not de.  Marco polo (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * If you want to translate the whole name into German, I think the best form would be "Die Kirche der Heiligen Dreifaltigkeit in Coldwater". "Die heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche in Coldwater" sounds as if it were the church which were called holy—while it is the Trinity which is called holy.
 * By the way, I am German. And if I have made a mistake in English Grammar, I'd be grateful if you tell me the correct way to put it into words. -- Irene1949 (talk) 21:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, "Heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche" has precedents in German-speaking areas:, , . But I agree the name shouldn't be translated at German Wikipedia anyway. +Angr 21:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I know. Google found 2510 results for "Heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche"—but it found 5730 results for "Kirche der Heiligen Dreifaltigkeit". And as I am a native speaker of German, it may be interesting for you which translation sounds better for me.
 * And I agree that it is correct if the name is not translated at German Wikipedia.-- Irene1949 (talk) 22:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Curiously, the names of some notable churches in Amsterdam are not translated on their English Wikipedia pages (Oude Kerk, Westerkerk, Nieuwe Kerk (Amsterdam)). However those in Berlin are (St. Hedwig's Cathedral, St. Mary's Church, Berlin, Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church). Maybe the Berlin churches are harder for non-German speakers to pronounce, although even I can manage "Marienkirche". Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In Dutch you could say "De Heilige Drievuldigheidskerk", as suggested by Marco Polo, but "De Heilige Drie-eenheidkerk", "Drie-eenheidskerk" (with a "verbindings-s"), "Drieëenheidkerk" or "Drieëenheidskerk" would also be correct (some people might appreciate the three consecutive e's). A quick glance at some google results suggests the first form is more popular on Belgian sites, while the Dutch prefer the others.

Is it possible that the genitive case could serve in German&mdash;:"die Kirche der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit"? Michael Hardy (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, that's what Irene1949 said above. +Angr 16:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * See also Evangelisch-Augsburgse Kerk van de Heilige Drie-eenheid (Warschau) Alansplodge (talk) 19:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)